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Again about DNS 8 Blocking Multilingual Use
Submitted by itamarez on Fri, 09/09/2005 - 11:03.
In view of the huge progress done by MS Speech (included in Windows Vista), I would like to raise once more the puzzling policy taken by ScanSoft to block multilingual use of their products. It is puzzling why ScanSoft do not capitalize on their advantages rather than lose them to the competitor.
One of the greatest advantages of DNS is its various languages. DNS is available for English (5 variants), French, Spanish, German, Italian, Dutch, and Japanese. (For a full list of languages supported for SR see http://www.tau.ac.il/~itamarez/sr/survey.htm#_Tabl...). MS Speech is available for only US English, Mandarin Chinese and Japanese.
Prior to the fusion of DNS with VoiceXpress, you could install different DNS language versions (such as DNS 5 for English and DNS 4 for Spanish). The old DNS architecture allowed that, because each DNS language behaved as an independent application. The disadvantage of this was that you had to unload-and-load a DNS application each time you wanted to switch to a different language. That was far from convenient.
When the architecture of the program changed, actually following the one designed by IBM ViaVoice for multilingual usage, it became no longer possible to use different versions under the same OS, but it was STILL POSSIBLE to install ALL available languages together. This new architecture has made it possible to switch RELATIVELY QUICKLY between languages by loading a different USER. That is of course much more convenient than the old architecture. (Switching between Microsoft English and any DNS language is however still QUICKER, because all you have to do is turn the respective microphones on and off.)
Now THE NEW REGIME has disabled this advantageous (though quite irritating costwise) architecture. You can no longer buy all DNS CDs and install all of the available languages pertaining to the same version to work together. You can only install what is included in the package you may have purchased. The ScanSoft packages are completely arbitrary and do not necessarily satisfy the needs of real users.
I think this new policy is an expression of sheer stupidity, incredible parochialism
(parochial people cannot understand why more than one set of languages is used), and shortsighted ignominy.
I wonder who can talk to those mysterious and unattainable new DNS designers that they cause real damage not only to people who need speech recognition, but to their own company's interests, because they encourage their customers to look for alternative applications.
ScanSoft could have increased their profits had they made it possible to buy language modules as downloadable patches from a central store. Once you install one language program, the engine is there, and even when you install a full-fledged language version on top of it, the engine is not installed again, but only the additonal module is added. Instead of buying full versions from various countries with extra expenses on shipping and brokerage (customs etc.), it would have been much more helpful to buy extra modules for a much more reasonable price. ScanSoft, instead of INCREASING its advantage, has deplorably SHRINKED it to absurdity.
Itamar Even-Zohar
PS. Practically speaking, my solution is simply staying with 7.1, until some alternative turns up (like Microsoft Speech). I am pretty convinced that there is VERY LITTLE THAT IS NEW in all of the non-English version 8 modules from the point of view of speech recognition proper. ALL of them have ALWAYS been better in terms of accuracy than the English modules (yes, including French!), and I guess that what has changed in those versions is basically structural adaptations (such as the
localization of speech files) rather than anything else.
itamarez wrote:In view of
In view of the huge progress done by MS Speech (included in Windows Vista), I would like to raise once more the puzzling policy taken by ScanSoft to block multilingual use of their products. It is puzzling why ScanSoft do not capitalize on their advantages rather than lose them to the competitor.
Itamar,
I have been discussing this with ScanSoft technical support and the development folks for some time. Based on those conversations, it is my understanding that this problem was created by the movement to the new activation screen and was not intentional (i.e., designed to make life miserable for everyone).
It is also my understanding based on these conversations that, if it has not already been done, it is their intention to provide a fix for both multiple language and multiple version installation. I am not sure that the multiple version installation is intended for general public consumption. However, unless I am misinterpreting what I have been told, the multiple language issue is being addressed.
Prior to the fusion of DNS with VoiceXpress, you could install different DNS language versions (such as DNS 5 for English and DNS 4 for Spanish). The old DNS architecture allowed that, because each DNS language behaved as an independent application. The disadvantage of this was that you had to unload-and-load a DNS application each time you wanted to switch to a different language. That was far from convenient.
I need to correct you on one point here. While the full integration of VoiceXpress into DNS initially occurred with DNS version 6 (the time during which I was associated with DNS as SDK product manager), SpeechLinks and SpeechDocs were incorporated into DNS version 5. This is the Advanced Scripting and came originally from VoiceXpress.
On the other hand, the problem, aside from getting around the activation issue which is a complex issue both programmatically and from a licensing perspective, is not, in an of itself, all that complex. It simply requires the ability to add the modeling information so that the various Language Models can be recognized as being present and accessible. During my tenure as SDK product manager, one of the things that we discussed on a regular basis was insuring that users could be accommodated with regard to issues such as this one.
I think this new policy is an expression of sheer stupidity, incredible parochialism
(parochial people cannot understand why more than one set of languages is used), and shortsighted ignominy.
I wonder who can talk to those mysterious and unattainable new DNS designers that they cause real damage not only to people who need speech recognition, but to their own company's interests, because they encourage their customers to look for alternative applications.
ScanSoft could have increased their profits had they made it possible to buy language modules as downloadable patches from a central store. Once you install one language program, the engine is there, and even when you install a full-fledged language version on top of it, the engine is not installed again, but only the additonal module is added. Instead of buying full versions from various countries with extra expenses on shipping and brokerage (customs etc.), it would have been much more helpful to buy extra modules for a much more reasonable price. ScanSoft, instead of INCREASING its advantage, has deplorably SHRINKED it to absurdity.
I can appreciate your frustration because it was one of my first comments to technical support and development to question the validity and the viability of taking this approach. However, the problem stems not from an intentional desire to create a miserable circumstance for DNS users. It came out of the complexity of the activation process, the encrypting of the models.ini file, and the corresponding changes to DNS 8. I think, and it is my opinion, that someone didn't carefully think through all the complications that might arise given the changes in DNS 8.0. Yes it is unfortunate, yes it is extremely frustrating for people like yourself who rely on multiple languages. However, I would politely suggest that you might be a little less caustic, as well as careful in terms of your finger-pointing so as to ensure that you have all of the facts, and express your frustration in more productive ways. If the ScanSoft folks read your posts, and I know they do, using terms like “stupidity, incredible parochialism” does not serve your best interests, nor does it help all of the others who are in your boat. Frustration is one thing, vituperative and extemporaneous comments, regardless of how justified one may feel in making them, simply slow down the process of getting things fixed.
Itamar
Itamar Even-Zohar
ita...@even-zohar.com
Chuck,
Thank you for your explanations. I did not suspect that multilingualism had been blocked because of some intentional malice. There simply was no logic in making it impossible for people to use fully paid products! It was blocked, as you yourself admit, because the DNS people simply forgot about it. I would say: probably because they could not care less about it. They forgot that the combination of language modules is a procedure that should be checked before the final release.
By the way, they have made life miserable all along these years for people working with various languages by making them wander around the globe in order to get those versions. Their e-shop does not sell anything but English. I am sorry, but this policy (and attitude) has got no other name than parochialism even if you prefer to be more polite, because people who mentally link languages to only the country where they are supposed to be exclusively used somehow do not know much about the realities of the modern world.
As you may recall, I have been writing about this irritating drawback MANY times, but only now learned from your message that you have already discussed it with the DNS people. I simply got more and more puzzled by this behavoir, and above all by the SILENCE of this company. They could have issued some sort of announcement to tell users "we are aware now of this problem; be patient, we will deal with it and will let you know when we have a fix for it".
I apologize if you think I have crossed the line. Rememebr that this is perhaps my 10th message about this problem, the last one was about two months ago, so I haven't been shrieking all the time from the tops of the hills. If you managed to move the DNS people to some action, thank you for your help.
Itamar Even-Zohar
itamarez wrote:Itamar
Itamar Even-Zohar
ita...@even-zohar.com
Chuck,
Thank you for your explanations. I did not suspect that multilingualism had been blocked because of some intentional malice. There simply was no logic in making it impossible for people to use fully paid products! It was blocked, as you yourself admit, because the DNS people simply forgot about it. I would say: probably because they could not care less about it. They forgot that the combination of language modules is a procedure that should be checked before the final release.
By the way, they have made life miserable all along these years for people working with various languages by making them wander around the globe in order to get those versions. Their e-shop does not sell anything but English. I am sorry, but this policy (and attitude) has got no other name than parochialism even if you prefer to be more polite, because people who mentally link languages to only the country where they are supposed to be exclusively used somehow do not know much about the realities of the modern world.
As you may recall, I have been writing about this irritating drawback MANY times, but only now learned from your message that you have already discussed it with the DNS people. I simply got more and more puzzled by this behavoir, and above all by the SILENCE of this company. They could have issued some sort of announcement to tell users "we are aware now of this problem; be patient, we will deal with it and will let you know when we have a fix for it".
I apologize if you think I have crossed the line. Rememebr that this is perhaps my 10th message about this problem, the last one was about two months ago, so I haven't been shrieking all the time from the tops of the hills. If you managed to move the DNS people to some action, thank you for your help.
Itamar Even-Zohar
Not a problem. What I have been told is this. There is a solution to both the international language multiple install problem and the multiple version (i.e., Medical vs. Legal vs. Professional). If you are in Europe, I've been instructed to tell everyone to contact the European technical support. They should be able to offer you the solution. I won't go into detail on what the solution is, just that it's available.
If you are in the US, contact US technical support and they will instruct you.
Regardless, you should be able to get what you need as long as you have legitimate copies (i.e., preferably registered with ScanSoft or with some kind of proof of purchase that will satisfy them). What kind of response anyone gets when calling support regarding these issues, I can't say for sure. However, I have been told by someone high on the food chain at ScanSoft that this is the straight skinny on these issues.
I have been told also that this solution has been available for at least a couple of months. I hope this helps everyone who needs it.
Chuck
PS I kn I knew that you were about at the end of your rope and ready to strangle the next ScanSoft representative, so I wanted to put some perspective on the entire issue, and hopefully this will resolve it for you.
Chuck, thanks for letting us
Chuck, thanks for letting us know about this, fortunately, although I am a multilingual user (or more correctly bilingual) my Italian package contains all I need. However, we all understand Itamar's frustration and it is certainly true that he has been complaining about the situation for a very long time.
Perhaps you could help with a more specific query, it is still frustrating having to switch users every time you change language, can you foresee, perhaps in the next version of DNS, a way of allowing a more rapid switch between languages? For example, would it be technically possible for a single user to contain the files for more than one language?
If the powers that be at ScanSoft are listening, let me give a typical example of multiple language use. I will do a translation in English and I then have to send an e-mail to the agency that has to be written in Italian. Very often I won't bother changing my user over unless my message is going to be particularly long. It should also be remembered that the commands in programmes such as Word basically only work if you use the language of your particular version, i.e. if I am dictating in Italian, I can't really exercise control over any of Word's commands that are obviously all in English. I suppose it might be possible to get round this to a certain extent using Vocola, but it is certainly very inconvenient. Who knows, maybe one day multiple languages will be able to work seamlessly!
Graham
Itamar
Itamar Even-Zohar
ita...@even-zohar.com
Graham (and Chuck),
While I am grateful to Chuck for his efforts, I would like to express the opinion that the solution of calling a support person and ask them what need be done to enable multilingual use is NOT really acceptable. First of all, it is a nuisance to call support (or write them e-mail). In most cases, when the problem is not of a simple nature they do not know much about it. I can substantiate that with past correspondence. I allow myself to be a bit skeptical about how much ScanSoft has by now instructed its support people to give insructions about multilingual use. Since you live in Europe (I am not), perhaps you could put it to the test. Please call your local DNS support number and ask them how you can activate multilingual use. I am curious to learn what you have been told.
In my opinion, such instructions should have been by now available from ScanSoft's site in the shape of a patch (downloadable, for example, only with a password, if ScanSoft worries about the secret), or textual instructions.
As far as I am concerned, moving to Version 8 is not a pressing matter for me (sorry, Chuck, if you thought it was a matter of livelihood for me), since Version 7.1 works very well for all the other languages than English (for which I normally use MS). I will certainly upgrade once I learn that ScanSoft has made multilingual not a secret but an open and easy matter.
Itamar E-Z
itamarez wrote:In my
In my opinion, such instructions should have been by now available from ScanSoft's site in the shape of a patch (downloadable, for example, only with a password, if ScanSoft worries about the secret), or textual instructions.
Itamar E-Z
Itamar,
Due to the nature of the fix, a patch would have been impractical.
One point that I did not make was that if any users have purchased their copies of DNS from a ScanSoft VAR, they can contact their VAR. If there are VARs that do not have access to the information regarding this fix, or have not been instructed/notified, they can contact their sources at ScanSoft to obtain the appropriate information.
Chuck
Itamar
Itamar Even-Zohar
ita...@even-zohar.com
Chuck,
You surely are aware of what this entails for a normal DNS buyer. It means: delays and delays in installing the programs. Until now, I normally used to buy my Spanish from FNAC, where no one knows anything about the program, and other languages from other vendors. For version 7, I was lucky to get the Dutch package that was purchased in Leiden by a friend, who happened to be there. Before that, I bought DNS several times from Dragon Canada, from FNAC Paris, etc. Such puchases were expensive because of shipment (no regular mail) and VAT (or customs in Canada, when I happened to be staying there), which added almost one third to the cost of each language. In short, I don't see where I could get this information from the vendors. I would be happy of course to buy ALL languages DIRECTLY from ScanSoft's e-store, but they don't sell the programs, nor do they ship to Israel.
I insist that once a user buys a package, everything should be contained in the package. It's absurd to request a buyer to hunt for some secretive information. The user is not supposed to waste time (days in this case) in order to learn how the package he had purchased should be installed. I can see most peospective buyers giving up rather than running around full of energy to get the knowledge.
Itamar
itamarez wrote:Itamar
Itamar Even-Zohar
ita...@even-zohar.com
Chuck,
You surely are aware of what this entails for a normal DNS buyer. It means: delays and delays in installing the programs. Until now, I normally used to buy my Spanish from FNAC, where no one knows anything about the program, and other languages from other vendors. For version 7, I was lucky to get the Dutch package that was purchased in Leiden by a friend, who happened to be there. Before that, I bought DNS several times from Dragon Canada, from FNAC Paris, etc. Such puchases were expensive because of shipment (no regular mail) and VAT (or customs in Canada, when I happened to be staying there), which added almost one third to the cost of each language. In short, I don't see where I could get this information from the vendors. I would be happy of course to buy ALL languages DIRECTLY from ScanSoft's e-store, but they don't sell the programs, nor do they ship to Israel.
I insist that once a user buys a package, everything should be contained in the package. It's absurd to request a buyer to hunt for some secretive information. The user is not supposed to waste time (days in this case) in order to learn how the package he had purchased should be installed. I can see most peospective buyers giving up rather than running around full of energy to get the knowledge.
Itamar
Itamar,
Fundamentally, I fully agree. However, before we put this issue to rest, and I think we should for the benefit of this forum, I'll leave you with a couple of comments.
First, unfortunate and as frustrating as it may be, the solution is not a one-size-fits-all fix.
Second, ScanSoft has openly and politely provided me with an understanding of the problem as well as the fix. As a programmer, and as someone who has been involved with these kinds of problems and issues in a variety of companies over the last 20 years, I have to agree with their decision. If the solution were simply a matter of providing a patch, they have indicated that they would have done so. However, they have asked me politely and respectfully to honor my NDA with them and not be the spokesperson for the explanation. Whether this is right or wrong, good or bad, is water over the dam. A camel will always be a horse designed by a committee, companies will always make mistakes, and hindsight is always 20/20.
Fortunately, I have had the opportunity to discuss the problem, as well is the concerns that have been expressed. They are well aware of the frustration and the problems that have been created by this issue. Hopefully, they will have learned from it
. Regardless, it's time to move on.
Chuck
Itamar
Itamar Even-Zohar
ita...@even-zohar.com
Chuck,
OK. Let's hope that this issue is fully resolved in Version 8.1 or 9. In the meantime, let's hope MS produce multilingualism for Vista, too.
Itamar
Good luck on getting
Good luck on getting Nuance/ScanSoft to listen! It would be nice if they bothered to explain how this came about. They seem less communicative than other software vendors, like MS -- which has mastered the art of mining user feedback to guide product refinement and create PR.
Multi-lingual translators are peak users of SR software and could provide valuable feedback. I've never understood why a niche maker like Naunce doesn't forge better relationships with its users: It is such a cohesive, talkative and intimate community. Seems to me that not getting closer to this kind of user is like wasting a valuable competitive resource.
Hopefully Chuck is right in saying they are aware of and working on the problem.
Bruce
PS: "ignominy" doesn't mean what you seem to think it means.