Microphone preamp
Submitted by stuartestrand on Thu, 02/18/2010 - 23:02.
I have purchased a Samson Q7 microphone, but find that the level is too low for it to be used with my sound card. I can use it through my Andrea USB adapter, but the level is still quite low. I gather from researching interfacing professional microphones to computer sound cards that I need a microphone preamp. Microphone preamps can run into thousands of dollars or they can be as cheap as $89 (Audio Buddy, for example). I can't afford the expensive setups, but I don't want to degrade the quality coming out of my microphone. Any advice?
Stuart

quote=Stuart]I have
I have purchased a Samson Q7 microphone, but find that the level is too low for it to be used with my sound card. I can use it through my Andrea USB adapter, but the level is still quite low. I gather from researching interfacing professional microphones to computer sound cards that I need a microphone preamp. Microphone preamps can run into thousands of dollars or they can be as cheap as $89 (Audio Buddy, for example). I can't afford the expensive setups, but I don't want to degrade the quality coming out of my microphone. Any advice?
We have sold over 500 Samson Q7 the past four years and are very familiar with it. As a matter of fact I am dictating with one right now from my Home Office Computer. If there's one thing you can say about a Samson Q7, is that it has a moderate to high gain.
Two possibilities come to mind:
1. We use ours at a distance of 1-2 inches from our mouth, speaking right down the head of the microphone not across the top. By any chance are you speaking at a long distance? We know there's a microphone vendor who claims you can use this microphone successfully at a long distance, but our testing and experience shows you will not achieve best accuracy at a long distance.
2. Are you using the proper cable? It should be an XLR female on the end that goes into the microphone. The sound card end should be a balanced stereo output male 3.5 mm (a three part connector with a tip, midsection, and ring). If you're not using the proper cable or are using a step down adapter from an Unbalanced Cable, I would not be surprised by your low volume results. Here is a link to see the proper cable:
http://www.emicrophones.com/microphones/prod_detai...
3. Although it is not probable, it is possible you have a defective unit. If you purchased it from us, we would be happy for you to send it back for us to test. If you purchased it somewhere else, you should contact Samson as they have the three year warranty. Samson a repair is somewhat slower than most manufacturers, but they give you an honest evaluation.
--
Marty Markoe, eMicrophones, Inc.
You Don't Need a Preamp
You do not need a preamp so we can begin by removing that item from the equation.
We are also Samson Q7 resellers and although Martin has given you several possible solutions, we can probably tell you exactly what's wrong. It sounds like you purchased your microphone from a non-speech recognition reseller. Qualified speech recognition specialists, such as emicrophones and KnowBrainer sell the correct cable which we have available
at http://www.knowbrainer.com/ShopOnline/index.cfm/pr... .
We recommend purchasing peripherals (microphones, sound cards, digital recorders, command software etc.) from a Nuance certified/licensed speech recognition specialist for an extra layer of NaturallySpeaking technical support and because it can eliminate these types of problems.
Lunis - Nuance NaturallySpeaking Gold Certified BBB Accredited Speech Recognition/Microphone Solutions Provider & Founder of TheMicrophoneStore
I have had the same problem,
I have had the same problem, both with the Q7 and my previous handheld (a Shure VR116L speech mike)... despite using the correct cable as supplied by emicrophones. Most people here will say it should not be a problem, but for some of us it just is.
The Audio Buddy is excellent and will do exactly what you want at a reasonable cost.
Mark
MarkUK wrote: I have had the
I have had the same problem, both with the Q7 and my previous handheld (a Shure VR116L speech mike)... despite using the correct cable as supplied by emicrophones. Most people here will say it should not be a problem, but for some of us it just is.
I am wondering if the problem is computer or user specific as you had a low volume problem with microphones from different manufacturers that normally do not have low volume? Did you ever try these microphones on different computers? Also, by any chance is there anything unusual about your voice?
--
Marty Markoe, eMicrophones, Inc.
http://www.emicrophones.com
Hi Marty. Most likely user
Hi Marty.
Most likely user specific as I am now on my third computer with the Shure.
As regards my voice, I spent my professional life talking to people on a one to one basis. My voice is clear but quiet unless I am deliberatly projecting to talk to a larger group, when I can be heard at the back of a decent sized lecture hall.
Normally I use an ME3 through a USB pod at a distance a 1/2 inch from the corner of my mouth, when the blue bar of the volume control comes about two stops down from the top.
For other purposes, I use the Q7 through the audio buddy and am very happy with this setup.
Mark
MarkUK wrote: Normally I use
Normally I use an ME3 through a USB pod at a distance a 1/2 inch from the corner of my mouth, when the blue bar of the volume control comes about two stops down from the top.
For other purposes, I use the Q7 through the audio buddy and am very happy with this setup.
It certainly does not sound like there is anything wrong with your voice. I'm even more perplexed because the ME3 has a lower gain than the Q7. Do you use the Q7 close to your mouth?
--
Marty Markoe, eMicrophones, Inc.
http://www.emicrophones.com
I use the Q7 at about 2
I use the Q7 at about 2 inches directly in front of my mouth, with the distance maintained by a loop of wire I tape to the body of the microphone resting on my chin.
I do get a signal through the USB pod, but the volume setting is right at the top and I prefer not to have so much amplification from my soundcard. With the Audio Buddy I can adjust it to a steady 50%... not sure it makes any difference, but I like to think it does.
You may remember that there was a lot of discussion on this issue many years ago with "Richards" recommending this setup for the Sennheiser MD431 II and someone with a quiet voice.. Louise I think. This was back in 2003 on the Scansoft forum
Mark
MarkUK wrote: I use the Q7
I use the Q7 at about 2 inches directly in front of my mouth, with the distance maintained by a loop of wire I tape to the body of the microphone resting on my chin.
The Q7 is an entertainer's microphone. If you think of a singer on stage with a handheld microphone you should have the image of the singer almost eating the microphone. These are designed to be used close. I keep mine 1/2 to 1 inch. Using the Balanced Spring Microphone Arm allows close proximity easily when dictating and makes it easy two push out of the way when finished. See this at:
http://www.emicrophones.com/microphones/prod_detai...
I do get a signal through the USB pod, but the volume setting is right at the top and I prefer not to have so much amplification from my soundcard. With the Audio Buddy I can adjust it to a steady 50%... not sure it makes any difference, but I like to think it does.
I just reran the Audio Setup Wizard for the Samson Q7 with the Andrea USB pod at a distance of about 1/2 inch. The blue volume meter finishes it at about 75%. The Sennheiser ME3 finishes even a little bit higher. As long as it passes the volume level test, whether high or low, should be irrelevant. Did you ever just tried dictating with the Q7? My guess is your results would still be the same as with the amplifier.
You may remember that there was a lot of discussion on this issue many years ago with "Richards" recommending this setup for the Sennheiser MD431 II and someone with a quiet voice.. Louise I think. This was back in 2003 on the Scansoft forum
I do not recall the specific discussion, but I know the Samson Q7 was not even released before 2005 or 2006. If anything, the Sennheiser MD 431 has a lower gain than the Samson Q7. This is due to the internal baffling and an internal windscreen on the Sennheiser MD 431. This is why we recommend an external windscreen on the Samson Q7 to make it more closely match the Sennheiser MD 431.
I'm going to think about it, but perhaps we should make mention on our web site page for the Samson Q7 that people with soft voices may require some amplification. What do you think about this?
--
Marty Markoe, eMicrophones, Inc.
Martin Markoe wrote:The Q7
The Q7 is an entertainer's microphone. If you think of a singer on stage with a handheld microphone you should have the image of the singer almost eating the microphone. These are designed to be used close. I keep mine 1/2 to 1 inch.
Thanks, I will adjust my spacing wire. Earlier posts about the Q7 suggested that it could be used at a distance and I suppose that was why I started to use it with the preamp. Picked up far too much interference though to be useful, so I use it closer. Another reason I use it thus way is that it allows me to have an alternative sound source on my user so that I can keep both the Q7 and my ME3 permanently connected.
I just reran the Audio Setup Wizard for the Samson Q7 with the Andrea USB pod at a distance of about 1/2 inch. The blue volume meter finishes it at about 75%. The Sennheiser ME3 finishes even a little bit higher. As long as it passes the volume level test, whether high or low, should be irrelevant. Did you ever just tried dictating with the Q7? My guess is your results would still be the same as with the amplifier.
Could be, as I said, I like to think it is better but probably not so very different.
I do not recall the specific discussion, but I know the Samson Q7 was not even released before 2005 or 2006. If anything, the Sennheiser MD 431 has a lower gain than the Samson Q7. This is due to the internal baffling and an internal windscreen on the Sennheiser MD 431. This is why we recommend an external windscreen on the Samson Q7 to make it more closely match the Sennheiser MD 431.
I use one.
I'm going to think about it, but perhaps we should make mention on our web site page for the Samson Q7 that people with soft voices may require some amplification. What do you think about this?
I think it is always a good idea to provide information on alternative setups. Certainly the Audio Buddy is an excellent sound source with an extremely clean signal which does provide an answer for some of us.
Mark
MarkUK wrote: Earlier posts
Earlier posts about the Q7 suggested that it could be used at a distance and I suppose that was why I started to use it with the preamp.
We mentioned in our firt response in this discussion:
"We know there's a microphone vendor who claims you can use this microphone successfully at a long distance, but our testing and experience shows you will not achieve best accuracy at a long distance."
I think it is always a good idea to provide information on alternative setups. Certainly the Audio Buddy is an excellent sound source with an extremely clean signal which does provide an answer for some of us.
We will put this information on our new web site's page for the Q7 when it goes live. Thanks.
--
Marty Markoe, eMicrophones, Inc.
http://www.emicrophones.com
Olympus ME 31 Alternative
The Q7 isn't ideally suited to soft voices although you can get away with backing off from the microphone after running the Audio Setup Wizard because of the large microphone capsule. However accuracy tends to drop beyond 6 inches.
If you're looking for serious dictation distance, as in being able to dictate from 3 or 4 feet away (with a soft voice), the Olympus ME 31 (available at http://www.KnowBrainer.com) would be a good inexpensive alternative to the Q7. Out of all the microphones we sell, the Olympus ME 31 is the one we use the most because we listen to music under headphones all day and can dictate while leaning back in our chair. And... when it comes to command deployment, we can sometimes get away with speaking from as far away as 8 feet.
Lunis - Founder of TheMicrophoneStore
KnowBrainer wrote: The Q7
The Q7 isn't ideally suited to soft voices although you can get away with backing off from the microphone after running the Audio Setup Wizard because of the large microphone capsule. However accuracy tends to drop beyond 6 inches.
I will try that, although I am happy using it close up most of the time.
If you're looking for serious dictation distance, as in being able to dictate from 3 or 4 feet away (with a soft voice), the Olympus ME 31 (available at http://www.KnowBrainer.com) would be a good inexpensive alternative to the Q7. Out of all the microphones we sell, the Olympus ME 31 is the one we use the most because we listen to music under headphones all day and can dictate while leaning back in our chair. And... when it comes to command deployment, we can sometimes get away with speaking from as far away as 8 feet.
Lunis - Founder of TheMicrophoneStore
Yup, I have been watching that one and drool over the idea. Unfortunately I am now retired and with my current usage could not justify the expense to my wife.
Mark
MarkUK wrote: KnowBrainer
If you're looking for serious dictation distance, as in being able to dictate from 3 or 4 feet away (with a soft voice), the Olympus ME 31 would be a good inexpensive alternative to the Q7. Out of all the microphones we sell, the Olympus ME 31 is the one we use the most because we listen to music under headphones all day and can dictate while leaning back in our chair. And... when it comes to command deployment, we can sometimes get away with speaking from as far away as 8 feet.
Yup, I have been watching that one and drool over the idea. Unfortunately I am now retired and with my current usage could not justify the expense to my wife.
eMicrophones, Inc. introduced the Olympus ME31 to the speech recognition community in February of 2009. As with all the microphones on our website, we extensively tested it in house. In addition, two independent regular users of speech recognition tested it for their valued opinions. The consensus of the four testers was the ME31's sweet spot was 2- 2 1/2 feet from the user's mouth pointed directly towards the user's chin.
We did not believe this microphone was useful for professional dictation because it was subject to picking up background noises in many typical office conditions even though the microphone is highly directional. When pointed directly at one's mouth it can be fairly accurate, although not quite as accurate as the highest rated microphones., Echoes off nearby surfaces like walls and windows affected accuracy negatively.
eMicrophones felt that this microphone could be useful to people doing casual dictation. By casual dictation, we mean basic e-mail and correspondence not high volume professional reporting. It is also useful for people with disabilities will require a microphone not mounted on their head or wheelchair. It can also be very useful when used in command mode as that is a constrained vocabulary and is not likely to be affected as much by extraneous noise.
We discontinued selling this microphone after six months. We found we were receiving a higher rate of return than most microphones. Even though the description of this microphone on our website said it was not good for professional dictation users, it was being purchased by them. Several of them mentioned to us that they heard on a different website that it could be used at great distances and even with some noise or music. At this point we decided to remove this from our website as there were other microphones that accomplish equal or better results and were not subject to what we believe to be marketing/promotion information not in conjunction with our own testing.
Marty Markoe, eMicrophones, Inc.
See us at: http://www.eMicrophones.com
Martin Markoe wrote: We
We discontinued selling this microphone after six months.
Marty Markoe, eMicrophones, Inc.
We recently added a private speech recognition VAR Forum (value added reseller forum) to the KnowBrainer website so that around 600 speech recognition/microphone resellers could share marketing strategies and technology. We mention this because some microphone resellers have informed us that they have discontinued selling the Olympus ME 31 since a number of non-speech recognition websites started offering it at a couple of dollars above cost which has effectively killed the profit and vendor popularity on the ME 31.
We have only received a handful of returns and heard no complaints about this microphone (which we have been selling for about a year) when it is used as recommended; in quiet environments. Although this microphone can be used from as far away as 4 feet and has been known to pick up a command from over 10 feet away, we agree with Martin in that the microphone should typically be used within the 2 to 2.5 foot range but the reason why we still carry this microphone is because it serves a purpose that we found to be unmatched by any other affordable microphone. We briefly considered discontinuing sales of the ME 31 but we cannot in good conscious suspend the availability of this microphone to our clients. Profit$ have to take a backseat to ethics.
One of the biggest end-user complaints we hear is having to take the time to put on a headset microphone or having to position yourself within 4 inches of other relatively inexpensive desktop microphones such as the Q7, Buddy Desktop etc.. Our favorite microphone is the Airline 77 because it's highly accurate and highly noise canceling but it still takes 2 or 3 seconds to put on the headset and perhaps a couple more seconds to power up the microphone so when offered the option of not putting on the headset, as silly as it sounds, many end-users will resort to typing until reality settles in and they realize they are working too inefficiently. What breaks the ice for us is the ME 31’s 4 foot range. Having an effective 4 foot range means that we can verbally turn the microphone on as we walk towards our desk. As Martin pointed out, we also aim the microphone towards our chin, which we 1st reported in our ME 31 Review early last year but the reason why we point the microphone element towards our chin is so that when we lean back in our chair (which we know is a nasty habit), the microphone element lines up directly with our mouth and that's where the 3 to 4 foot range comes in. We realize that taking 2 or 3 seconds to put on a headset sounds ridiculous but we also believe it's human nature and we've heard the same story from possibly hundreds of our clients since 1996. The ME 31 microphone definitely isn't for everyone or every situation but we believe it is well-suited to extremely lazy people like moi, who work in quiet environments. Especially if they like to listen to music through a pair Sennheiser HD 800 headsets; because the Big Haired Lady simply doesn't appreciate Jon Stewart's - “Gold” or the Doors - “Light My Fire” at 90 dB. And... she really hates Iron Butterflies - In-A-Gadda-Davida. Go figure.
To put it another way... I can use any speech recognition microphone I want because I test and sell more microphones than I can easily count. For my specific situation, which I realize may be somewhat unique, my personal favorite microphone is the ME 31 which I now use approximately 90% of the time. We typically recommend the ME 31 microphone for quiet environments, doctors who don't have time to sit down and put on a headset, attorneys who need to talk on the phone while simultaneously making speech recognition notes and programmers/developers who typically listen to loud music through headsets to block out everything else in their environment (my personal poison). We not only used the ME 31 to dictate this posting but as with all items sold on our website, the ME 31 includes a 30 day customer satisfaction no restock fee guarantee which I believe KnowBrainer Inc. was the 1st microphone reseller to introduce.
Martin Markoe wrote: MarkUK
I use the Q7 at about 2 inches directly in front of my mouth, with the distance maintained by a loop of wire I tape to the body of the microphone resting on my chin.
The Q7 is an entertainer's microphone. If you think of a singer on stage with a handheld microphone you should have the image of the singer almost eating the microphone. These are designed to be used close. I keep mine 1/2 to 1 inch. Using the Balanced Spring Microphone Arm allows close proximity easily when dictating and makes it easy two push out of the way when finished. See this at:
http://www.emicrophones.com/microphones/prod_detai...
Thanks, I have adjusted my spacing wire to 3/4" and am getting the blue bar at about 30%. I have not formally tested it, but accuracy seems OK and comparable with my ME3.
Mark
MarkUK wrote: Thanks, I have
Thanks, I have adjusted my spacing wire to 3/4" and am getting the blue bar at about 30%. I have not formally tested it, but accuracy seems OK and comparable with my ME3.
Heck, this is just as it should be. Thanks for confirming that using the Q7 correctly (not 2 or more feet away) will yield the best accuracy.
--
Marty Markoe, eMicrophones, Inc.
http://www.emicrophones.com
Thanks for your helpful
Thanks for your helpful reply, Mark. Regarding other replies, I don't think I have a cable problem as it is wired as recommended on the Shure site:
http://www.shure.com/ProAudio/Products/us_pro_ea_c...
and I can see a (weak) signal on the Andrea USB pod, when I hold the mike an inch or two from my mouth. I will give the Audio Buddy a try. Do you use the mike input or the line input with the Audio Buddy output?
I have been using DNS for more than 10 years, with some satisfaction and some frustration (vocabulary adaptation to technical terms is poor, and the correction procedure and alternative suggestions really need improvement), but have always found the need to don a headset an inhibitory step. When I used Dragon Dictate on the iphone, it was a revelation: just pick up the device and speak! I want to get that kind of experience at my desk.
Stuart
stuartestrand wrote: and I
and I can see a (weak) signal on the Andrea USB pod, when I hold the mike an inch or two from my mouth. I will give the Audio Buddy a try. Do you use the mike input or the line input with the Audio Buddy output?
Stuart
Connect to the line input, the output from the Audio Buddy will be too high for the microphone input unless you have it turned right down to absolute minimum.
Mark
line input
Yes, but I do not see the line input option in the audio setup Wizard (???)
Stuart
stuartestrand wrote: Yes,
Yes, but I do not see the line input option in the audio setup Wizard (???)
There is no line level input option. Just use the sound card you are connecting to as it is the Default audio input from the Audio Buddy pre-amp.
Did you notice Mark's latest post where he adjusted the mouth to microphone head distance when using the Andrea USB pod? He said:
"I have adjusted my spacing wire to 3/4" and am getting the blue bar at about 30%. I have not formally tested it, but accuracy seems OK and comparable with my ME3."
Have you tried using the Q7 with the Andrea USB pod at the proper close to the mouth distance, talking down the head of the microphone? If you have and are still getting low volume then I would bet there is a problem with your cable.
--
Marty Markoe, eMicrophones, Inc.
http://www.emicrophones.com
stuartestrand wrote: Yes,
Yes, but I do not see the line input option in the audio setup Wizard (???)
Stuart
That is correct. As long as your user is set up to use line input, all you will see is the reference to your sound card, you might not even see that with the audio setup wizard going straight to the volume adjust. The selection is done behind the scenes... I suspect in audio.ini
Mark
MarkUK wrote: stuartestrand
Yes, but I do not see the line input option in the audio setup Wizard (???)
Stuart
That is correct. As long as your user is set up to use line input, all you will see is the reference to your sound card, you might not even see that with the audio setup wizard going straight to the volume adjust. The selection is done behind the scenes... I suspect in audio.ini
Mark
Just FYI, the only time that you see the input options is when creating a new user under the "Dictation source". Otherwise, Mark is correct, you will not see anything other than some reference to your soundcard in the Audio Setup Wizard.
On the other hand, the selection or the setting for the microphone input is recorded and maintained in the audioin.dat file which is then inserted in the audio.ini file.
Chuck Runquist
Technical Project Manager
VoiceTeach LLC
"An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it" -- Gandhi
Found a useful reference
Found a useful reference which, I think, puts this in perspective.
http://www.speechcomputing.com/node/56
Scroll down or search for Richards... especially the second post!
Mark
MarkUK wrote: Scroll down or
Scroll down or search for Richards... especially the second post!
Jim Richards (also uses the alias jruing) and I have been friends for over 10 years. He is a true audiophile and played in a band for many years. His experience is highly respected.
The main thing he says is:
"The line-in input channel is "cleaner" than the microphone input channel, because the microphone input channel has its own built-in preamplifier which is not as clean and introduces more noise and distortion than my higher-quality, external preamplifier. I say "pPresumptively" because I cannot really prove that it's that way, although it's supposed to be according to the experts and according to the specifications for the sound card. I also say "pPresumptively" because I cannot prove that it yields better recognition accuracy. I think so.... It should... in theory... but I have not yet devised a method of proving it."
Although he thinks Line In should produce purer audio than amplified Mic level, he could not prove it. He and I were always looking for a definitive test to gauge microphones. The best eMicrophones could do was test microphones sitting side by side dictating into Dragon on similar systems. One of those tests was dictating into two Sennheiser MD431II with one feeding through an Andrea USB pod and the other throuhg a pre-amp and into the Line In on a SoundBlaster. The Rainbow Passage was read into Dragon Pad and both readings were perfect. Even switched the microphones and cable and read the passage again with the same results.
--
Marty Markoe, eMicrophones, Inc.
http://www.emicrophones.com
Martin Markoe
Although he thinks Line In should produce purer audio than amplified Mic level, he could not prove it. He and I were always looking for a definitive test to gauge microphones. The best eMicrophones could do was test microphones sitting side by side dictating into Dragon on similar systems. One of those tests was dictating into two Sennheiser MD431II with one feeding through an Andrea USB pod and the other throuhg a pre-amp and into the Line In on a SoundBlaster. The Rainbow Passage was read into Dragon Pad and both readings were perfect. Even switched the microphones and cable and read the passage again with the same results.
--
Marty Markoe, eMicrophones, Inc.
http://www.emicrophones.com
If you two high-powered microphone mavens couldn't prove the point, it seems that for practical purposes there probably isn't enough of a difference to make a difference.
Bruce
We also agree
From a speech recognition point of view only, we came to the same conclusion. That's why we don't offer a preamp or recommend using the line input. Simply put, it just adds an unnece$$ary complication to the speech recognition equation.
Lunis - Founder of http://www.TheMicrophoneStore.com