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Browsing With Opera Hands-Free, Mouse Free: A Good Alternative to Firefox!
Submitted by lem729 on Mon, 08/22/2005 - 17:43.
There has been a topic in this forum: "Browsing Firefox Hands-free: which extension to use" And the choice there is between "Mouseless Browsing" and Hit-a-Hint." My preference between the two is "Mouseless Browsing" but they both have their advantages and problems, particularly with Dragon. Also, the numbers these extensions put on the pages do mess up the aesthetics of the page a bit, as well as its rendering.
I have also the Opera browser, and believe it can work better to find and open links from the keyboard and with voice activation. First, let me describe some of the keyboard alternative to using the mouse, and then move on to how it can work with Dragon (I have vers. 8 standard).
Keyboard Alternative
You can easily navigate links in Opera by holding down the shift key, and using the right, left, up, and down arrow keys. That's a very nice feature, but not the one I want to focus on (and also you can navigate the web page with some other keys that I'm not going to focus on right now). With the arrow keys, you can find the link you want, and then press the spacebar, or the enter key, to open the link.
What I want to focus on though 
is how you can do a "link search," find the link you want by keyboard and open it. In that regard,when you are on a web page with Opera, simply press the "comma" key from the keyboard, and that opens a small search box (called Finding Links) at the left hand side/bottom of the browser. Then, you type the first couple characters of the link you want (while the search box is open: you can't wait too long to type or it will close), and that usually takes you instantly (like magic) to the link. Now you can select any word in the link to do this, so you may want to choose an unusual word, though often the first or largest word can work well). If you type "Cli" for "Clinton," there may be a few links with the word "Clinton" on the page. Still no problem. You can move to the "f3" key to scroll through them till you find the one you want. (Then press the "spacebar" or "enter" key to open the link. An advantage over Firefox's extensions: the web page isn't messed up with numbers that the extensions,"Mouseless browsing" and "Hit-a-Hint" stick on the page. You may have to type a letter or two more than with the Firefox numbers, but really, not much more. With Opera, you can also open the link in a new tab (Opera terminology would call it a "page," by: (1) holding the shift key down, and pressing the "enter" or "spacebar" key, or (2) by simply cloning the page with a "control alt shift N" and working from the cloned page.
Dragon Voice Activation with "Link Search."
All I have to do, is say "press comma," and that starts the links search box in the lower right side of the browser. Then I just pick one word that looks like an unusual word (not one that will appear in twenty links on the page) from the link that I want to open and say that word in my microphone, for example, maybe, "conference." And then the link with the word "conference" in it will immediately be highlighted. (Of course, I could say two words from the link or more (but the more I say, I might mispronounce something, and mess this up) (One word is usually enough).
Then I say in my microphone "press enter" and the link will open.
Now, if there are TWO OR MORE links with the word "conference" in it, it is possible that the link with the word "conference" in it that I am not interested in will be highlighted first.
All I have to do then is say "press f3" (the scrolling through the links key) and the highlight will then move to the link I'm interested in. When the link with the word "conference" that I am interested in is highlighted, I then say "press enter" ("press spacebar" should work too), and the link is opened.
Opera's Link search seems to work quite well with Dragon's voice activation program. Indeed, it doesn't seem to require macros. It's really quite cool. 
(Aside: To Open the link in a new tab/page (if it wouldn't normally happen in the page one is on), again, you can when the link in question is highlighted: (1) say "press shift enter" or "press shift spacebar," or (2) one can simply clone the page you're on by saying, "press control alt shift N" (or, to be safer use the phonetic "November" for "N" as Dragon sometims hears the letter "N" as the word "end," to open a duplicate page (Thus, say, "press control alt shift November" to open the cloned page). Then do your link search from there by voice).
Fine explication of speech
Fine explication of speech navigation of links in Opera -- maybe it will inspire people to try it!
One problem I had with Opera, which may be fixed now, is that it had the butt-ugliest fonts I've ever seen! It was a pain to look at the thing, although that's a cosmetic issue and may not bother others.
Another thing to keep in mind is that MS has rejoined the browser wars and IE7 will soon be available, although not to W2K and earlier OS users. DNS navigation of IE has always been built in and generally works quite well, although navigation in IE7 will no doubt require an upgrade. Also, IE7 will have tabbed browsing, ad blocking, greater security (we can hope!), and integral RSS architecture (although it seems RSS is still a geek feature that hasn't caught on with most users).
Bruce
PS: Although its true that you don't always need macros, generally they make life easier. For example, a macro can let you say "OK" instead of "press enter", which I find much easier on the vocal cords and takes 33% less syllabic expense for an oft repeated command phrase.
Bruce, Thanks in
Bruce,
Thanks in commenting on my description of using Voice activation (for Mouseless/Hands free browsing) with Opera. What I like about the Opera setup is that it's workable, and easy, without the numbers affecting the aesthetics of the page (as they do in Firefox). That's not to say, I don't like the extensions in Firefox for avoiding the Mouse (and keyboard with voice activation). They are, in my view, major improvements over what Firefox had.
A. Opera Currently Has a Similar Range of Font Choices Compared to Firefox
Regarding your comments on Opera fonts, in version 8.02 of Opera, there are (in its preferences menu) a lot of font choices--seven-- including Courier New, Times New Roman, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Terminal, although some seem to relate to mail. (In Firefox, there are four choice--Courier New, Times New Roman, Serif, and Western). You might have had an unpleasant font in Opera when you checked it out, but it's easily changeable. On the default (in the current versions of Opera and Firefox (I haven't varied from the default), the font seems the same to me as I look now at this web page in each browser. You can also in Opera (as in Firefox) change/increase/decrease the pixels of the minimum font size.
B. Opera is More Accessible for the Visually Impaired
Actually, for those with visual impairment, Opera is the significantly more accessible browser (compared to Firefox) because of its extremely impressive "Zoom" feature (covering BOTH images and text) (other browsers, such as Firefox, only zoom text).
i) Zooming with the Mouse
With the mouse in Opera, this Zoom feature gives you the ability to make gradation increases or decreases in size in 10, 20, 30, 50 and 100 percent increments anywhere from 20 percent to 1000 percent of what you're starting with (with one click of the mouse). In Firefox, there are only a miniscule three settings from its view menu (and those relate only to text). The Firefox choices are merely (a) increase, (b) decrease, and (c) normal. Thus, for example, if you want to use the mouse to increase the text size in Firefox, you seemingly have to hit the View menu, the menu item Text Size and then click on "Increase" five times. That's a lot of mouse clicks.
In Opera, you can make a small or huge gradation jump, not just in text but also in images with one mouse action (especially useful for graphics and certain video). (Aside, with Firefox, you need to download an extension to be able to zoom images--I believe it's called "Image Zoom, and, in all candor, not nearly as good as the Zoom feature in Opera (also doesn't include the ability to zoom video, which the zoom feature in Opera can do).
ii). Zooming from the Keyboard, or with Voice Activation
Now I was discussing above, zooming text AND images with the "mouse". Also, for people who want to use the keyboard to control their browser, or voice activation, with Opera if you press the zero key, you get a 10 percent increase in text size and images, press it twice (20 percent), three times (thirty percent). On decreases, press the 9 key, you get a 10 percent decrease, twice, you get a 20 percent decrease, etc. Now with Firefox, you have to press the "control" key WITH the "equal" key, to get the 10 percent increase in text size (text only, not images), and the "control key" with the "minus" key to get the ten percent decrease in font size (text size only, not images). A bit harder by keyboard, two keys for Firefox, while only one key to get the job done with Opera.
Of course, the above is relevant in voice activation. Clearly, saying, "press zero" (as you would say in Opera) to increase text and image size ten percent, is easier than to increase text size in Firefox, by saying, "press control equal" (again only text size, the keyboard or voice activation comand will not increase "image size). It's also easier to say, "press nine" (in Opera) to get the 10 percent decrease in text and image size, than "press control minus" (in Firfox) to get the decrease in text size only.
C. Moving from One Open Tab to Another
In Opera and Firefox, to move from one open tab to another, you can can use the keyboard shortcut "control tab," or in voice activation, say, "press control tab." In Opera, though, you have a shortcut. You can just say, "press one" to move from one tab to another (right to left), and "press two" to move from one tab to another (left to right). So Opera makes it a tad easier by keyboard or voice activation to make one tab active and another inactive, or to move from along a series of tabs to find the one you want to open. It's pressing one key, instead of two, saying, in voice activation, two words, instead of three.
D. Opening Menu Items, Such as Bookmarks, the Advantage
of Having an Underlined Letter in the Item
In Opera, when you use the mouse to open a menu item, such as the Bookmarks menu and in Firefox too, no letter in any of the items in the menu (bookmark folders or mere bookmarks) is underlined. However, if you use the keyboard to open the bookmarks menu item in Opera, or if you use voice activation in Opera to do the same, suddenly when the menu opens, the items in it generally have one letter of the word in each item under the menu item underlined, so you know what letter to press on the keyboard, or to say in voice activation, to Open the bookmark or the bookmark folder.
For example, I have one folder in my bookmarks in Opera and also in Firefox for "bookstores," and another for "business." In Opera, when I use the keyboard or voice activation to access bookmarks, the "o" in bookstores, and the "u" in business is underlined, so I know what letter to press on the keyboard or to say in voice activation to open that folder. This feature is not present in Firefox. When you use the keyboard there to open Bookmarks, or voice activation to do the same, there is no underlining to give you hint on what letter to type from the keyboard, or to say in voice activation, to open the item in question.
E. The Forthcoming Mircorsoft Browser
Yes, we will have to see where Microsoft gets us with its browser, though my experience with Microsoft is they often promise more than they deliver. Still, whatever we get from their browser is only because they are feeling competition "heat" from Firefox and Opera. Otherwise, we might have Internet Explorer 6.0 for the next ten years.
F. Conclusion
Bruce, I am happy
with the Firefox extensions on Mouseless Browsing/Hit a Link, (indeed, enjoy using both Firefox and Opera) (also, make use of both mail clients, Thunderbird and Opera's M2, for the different plusses and minuses in each) but wanted to point out here (where people do deal with very significant accessibility concerns) that Opera has a lot going for it in Mouseless, Hands free browsing, with numerous accessibility features still not present in Firefox.
Re: Firefox text size
Re: Firefox text size manipulation:
Ctrl++/Ctrl+- for increasing/decreasing
Bruce, I'm confused by your
Bruce,
I'm confused by your ctrl ++.
I think it says that somewhere in some FAQ for Firfox that control + (just one plus) increases text size, but it doesn't work for me in Firfox. Have you tried it? At least it doesn't on my version (1.0.6). To increase text size you do a "control equal," and from Dragon, a "press control equal." To decrease font size, you do a "control minus," and with Dragon, "press control minus."
And it makes sense to do a "control =" to increase font size from the keyboard. To do a "control +," you'd have to hold the shift key down to get the +. That would be too complicated, as you'd be do a "control, shift key, +" (in order to get the + key.
Anyway, when I experimented from the keyboard with Firefox, it seems that "control =" increases font size, "control minus" decreases it.
Look up "Keyboard Shortcuts"
Look up "Keyboard Shortcuts" in Firefox Help: I'm just using their notations for increase/decrease text size.
Bruce
But they're wrong (that is,
But
they're wrong (that is, to say, the "Firefox Help" menu you looked at). That's what I'm saying. Try it out on your Firefox browser. Press "control =" and your text increases in size. Press "control + (which is holding the shift bar down, when you hit the =/+ key), and nothing happens. They've made a mistake in their "Keyboard shortcuts," which I figured out by trial and error.
Now in Firefox, "control minus" does decrease the font size from the keyboard. The help menu is right about that.
It took me awhile to figure
It took me awhile to figure out what you mean, because + works fine for me. That's because I'm hitting the numeric pad + sign and you're hitting the regular keyboard + sign. On many keyboards, it's very natural to reach for the numeric key +.
Another easy way is to press
Another easy way is to press Ctrl whilst using the mouse scroller. You can increase or decrease the size at will.
With VV, I made macros where I simply say "enlarge" or "reduce", and have set them at Ctrl +and Ctrl -, each pressed twice.
Quentin
Interesting. I like that
Interesting. I like that Ctrl, using the mouse scroller. Nice way to find the just right size with Firefox (though not mouse free). By the way, the same method also works with Opera. The only difference is to increase text size there, you move the scroller up, to decrease it, you move the scroller down. With Firefox it's the opposite.
I will write down the "scroller" approach, so I remember. Thanks, Quentin.
On laptops , or without a
On laptops , or without a numeric keypad, press Ctrl= or Ctrl-.
Quentin
Oops. I removed the two
Oops. I removed the two extras and mistakenly removed your mention of the problem you had here on Speech Computing. According to the log, the time these were written was a time of heavy load on the server. I'm wondering if you might have had problems getting a response and sent multiple actions which it rapidly repeated when the load was less.
I'd like to hear more of what went on when you had the problem Quentin! I know the hosting company is moving a lot of stuff around on servers now to balance loads and move some to newer servers. Perhaps that got in the way on here.
I had a major problem trying
I had a major problem trying to log in. It refused to accept my user name and password (which I have not had to use for a long time since I use a toolbar on Firefox). I then looked for a new password and got it. After a lot of attempts, it let me in. I then changed my password back to my original one.
When I was posting originally, there was no reaction to my first "submit", and therefore I clicked it again, again with no reaction, and then a third time, when everything came to a dead stop.
When I got back in, I discovered it had gone in three times.
I suspected there were glitches in the website, but there were very few users and guests online, so and I suspected it was not to overloading, but due to something else.
Quentin
It sounds as if the MySQL
It sounds as if the MySQL database server was offline temporarily. I saw the error you sent, that's what it basically means. All of the data on here, from user information to all the messages are stored on that database. If it has a problem, the site will have a really big problem. I know that during the nite (east coast time USA) they do backups on all their servers so it may have been a part of that too.
The hosting company should be done with all their changes sometime over the weekend.
Let me know if there are any more of these.
Ahhhaaa, my keyboard--a
Ahhhaaa, my keyboard--a Goldtouch split keyboard (for the ergonomics, and ease on my hands)--a bit expensive, only has the regular keyboard plus sign. There's no numeric pad. That's to keep it smaller so there's room for the mouse. Sorry, Bruce, we had that confusion. Since I'm just pressing the regular keyboard (not the numberic pad), my increasing of text in Firefox works with a "control equal," not "conrol plus."
lem729 wrote:Ahhhaaa, my
Ahhhaaa, my keyboard--a Goldtouch split keyboard (for the ergonomics, and ease on my hands)--a bit expensive, only has the regular keyboard plus sign. There's no numeric pad. That's to keep it smaller so there's room for the mouse. Sorry, Bruce, we had that confusion. Since I'm just pressing the regular keyboard (not the numberic pad), my increasing of text in Firefox works with a "control equal," not "conrol plus."
Yah, that happens a lot more than one realizes: A lot of debugging/problem solving depends on the unrealized fact that the suppliant is using non-standard gear -- which is probably why the online tech help sections regularly require you to go through a lot of questioning that doesn't seem pertinent to a particular issue but will ferret out the one in a thousand or more cases where they are germane.!
However, the upshot here is that people interested in different browsers have had exposure to a lengthy discussion of the alternatives. In fact, I would say we've talked the issue to a timely end!
Bruce
Not quite finished Bruce,
Not quite finished Bruce,
hahahaa. If you prefer to, in changing text size in Firefox, press from the keyoard, "zero" (as Opera does), instead of "control +" (as Firefox does), to increase text size, and "9" (as Opera does), instead of "control -" (as Firefox does) to decrease text size, and maybe a "6" (as Opera does) for a return to normal text size, instead of ____ (as Firefox does) (I'm not sure what it does,
and if you're using Firefox, I found this extension at the Extension Mirror for Firefox at this link
http://www.extensionsmirror.nl/index.php?showtopic...
If you download the extension, go down the page and download the enhanced version.
keyconfig 20050313.1
as it has a feature where it will warn you if you're using a keyboard shortcut already in use.
Anyway, I did add this extension for my Firefox browser, and made the change (inceasing text size with a "0", decreasing it with a "9", returning it to normal with a "6") and it works fine. Now, I can increase text size in Firefox with one stroke on the keypad, not two, and decrease text size with just one stroke, not two. (Of course, you don't have to do a 0, 9, and 6. You can put whatever shortcut you want in.) For myself, I wanted to keep it like Opera, so I don't have to remember as much. And also, I prefer doing less strokes on the keyboard, and saying less in Dragon to change font size.
I tried my change out with Dragon, and voice activation and this change works quite well with Dragon. In other words, I can now increase text size in Firefox (using Dragon) with a "Press 0," instead of having to say three words, "press control plus." Also, less words for decreasing text size.
The extension seemed fairly easy to operate.
Once I downloaded the extension (closed Firefox and then opened it to make the extension active), I discovered a new Keyconfig item to click on and open under the Tools menu. I opened the Key Configuration box, selected "Show Edit Mode." In the filter at the top, typed in one letter, "z" representing zoom. That gave me the three choices, "decrease," "increase" and "normal"
From there it's just a question of highlighting the keyboard shortcut you want to change, (don't delete it, but just put in what you want to use instead of the current keyboard shortcut, and click apply). If you press the "delete" key regarding what's already there in the shortcut box, the extension will think you want to use the "delete" key as the shortcut. (Of course if you make that mistake, it's easy to fix).
As an aside, in the Opera browser, you have the ability to change keyboard shortcuts by clicking on Tools, Preferences, Advanced tab, shortcuts, keyboard setup, and edit. Anyway, I'm glad there's a Firefox extension (even if I had to go to the extension mirror to get it) (slightly greater risk there) that seems to let you change keyboard shortcuts also.
I mean this could be useful for more than just changing font size. Anything that makes the shortcuts simpler is a plus.
I cannot understand what all
I cannot understand what all the fuss is about.
If you have made a macro for Firefox, either in VV or DNS, to enlarge or reduce using Ctrl+ or -, why bring in new keystrokes? You could make several macros, for example, enlarge 1, enlarge 2, etc. each with separate enlargement percentages.
Personally I find it quicker to use Ctrl and the scroll button on my mouse.
Quentin
Some people prefer to be
Some people prefer to be "mouse-free." Just to use the keyboard. Not all people use, or have the facility to use macros." You can with the Firefox extension change the way to enlarge text from two keystrokes to one. I personally, like having just one keystrke to do the job. And prefer not to use the mouse. This is an option I thought people should be aware of all.
Also, it's not just a question of using the keyboard. Some people would like to be able to use voice activation, such as Dragon Naturally speaking, and to change the zoom function with it. Your suggestion about using the "Control and scroll freature of the mouse" is a fine possibility if one is able to, or wants to use his hands. If he doesn't, or can't, then the best solution is the shortest way to get something done using voice activation. That is why I have suggested using the Firefox extension (if one is browsing with Firefox) to change by keyboard the way to increase the size of one's text from "control plus" to just "0" (or to some other solitary key to be selected by the user) and to similarly change the way of decreasing the size of one's text from "control minus" to a "9" (or to some other solitary key to be selected by the user). It is better/ and easier for the user with voice activation to say less, if one can get the job done that way. And since one activates the keyboard with voice activation by first saying the word "press," I'd rather say "press zero," to increase text size, than "press control equal."
Also, this issue regarding the Firefox extension is more than about just zooming text. The keyboard extension makes it possible to change other keyboard shortcuts. In other words, people have the ability with it to make their computer lives, via the keyboard, simpler.
Well, maybe they're wrong or
Well, maybe they're wrong or maybe ...
Geneven is right: "Ctrl+{+/-}" refers to the NumPad keys, i.e., "Ctrl+{NumPad+}" and "Ctrl+{NumPad-}". Anything you get from the number row keys, i.e., "_/-" and "+/=", is genuine lagniappe.
If you've never written keystroke scripts for DNS, its easy to think that "Ctrl++" means something like: Hold the Shift and Control keys and then strike the number row key "+/=". In fact, its easy enough to make that mistake even if you do write keystroke scripts, which I know from personal experience. Recently when I was composing scripts to speech enable Thunberbird and, secondarily, Firefox, I requested help in a different thread and also on a different forum. Someone on the other forum pointed out that the correct combo was: Hold the Control key and strike the NumPad+ key.
BTW, Firefox uses the same shortcuts as Opera, only with different meanings: Go to the Opera | View | Zoom menu and describe what you see as the shortcuts for "-100%" and "+100%".
The difference, at least on my system, is that Firefox responds to both the number row keys and the NumPad keys, while Opera does not respond to "Ctrl+{number row "+"}" (i.e., what you are describing as "Ctrl="). However, n.b., Opera does respond to "Ctrl+{number row "-"}" (i.e., what you are describing as "Ctrl-")!
Bruce
Opera increases text by
Opera increases text by keyboard 10 percent, by just pressing the 0 key, decreases by 10 percent just pressing the 9 key. [My Opera help guide says, just pressing the Numeric + is the same as pressing the 0, and just pressing the Numeric - is the same as pressing 9. I don't have a Numeric pad to test it. Bruce, You're using Control and the Numeric plus, so maybe that's why you were getting nothing with Opera. Again, Opera has it down to just one key. Either the 0 (or the Numeric + if that works) to incruease text size. Either the 9 (or Numeric - if that works) to decrease text size.
With Opera also, you can zoom 1000 percent by pressing the 8 key. Decrease huge amounts (???) by pressing the 7 key. And restore to what you had at the beginning by pressing the 6 key.
Using the control key, plus the mouse scrolling function works in both Opera and Firefox to increase or decrease text size.
From the menu items on view (and more so from its "view/eyeglass icon), Opera can change text size with tremendous range, Firefox is more limited (only three choices--increase 10 percent, decrease 10 percent, and normal).
Also, for zooming in general, Opera zooms text AND images. Firefox only zooms text.
re: IE7 The key point is
re: IE7
The key point is that Nuance/ScanSoft is likely to give DNS 9 as complete voice control over IE7 as DNS has over IE6. That degree of control can only be approximated in either Firefox/Opera via scripting.
Surely you've mischaracterized MS' capabilities: When they can't deliver, they generally scale back expectations by pre-announcements, e.g., the promised capabilities for Vista that they have now withdrawn. In any case, they're programming capabilities are superb. The valid ways to attack MS are against their rampant exploitation of monopoly power and appropriation of others' intellectual properties.
I agree that Dragon 9 will
I agree that Dragon 9 will be designed to work better with IE7 than with any other browser. I mean Dragon 7 and 8 were designed to work with IE 6, and not with Firefox and Opera. The point is that Dragon has a relationship with Microsoft (I mean, surely there's money involved . . .).
My point about IE is that they gave up the effort to improve their browser (after they knocked Netscape out of the browser race in the 1990s), until their browser share started to slip because of improvements by Firefox and Opera. I'm not saying they (Microsoft) won't build a good browser. Firefox is open source. They're (Microsoft is) fully capable of "stealing"
all of it. No? Even as they copied the features of Netscape to knock it out years ago! The end result was a monopoly that was bad for all consumers. Because then Microsoft stopped trying to improve IE.
Our best situation is that even if IE 7 comes out and is good, Firefox, and Opera remain very competitive. That will cause all of the browser developers to work at improving. The last thing that will be good for the consumer is for IE7 to knock out the competition, because, in my humble opinion, it will be as before--Microsoft will rest on its laurels and we won't see browser innovation then for a long time.
Of course, because Dragon will be designed to work with IE7, even as it is designed to work with IE 6, for people who want greater compatibility of their voice activation system with their browser (and rely on Dragon), there will be a tendency to use IE 7 over the other browsers.
You're missing the key
You're missing the key point: The best speech control of a browser will be DNS9/IE7, just as it currently is DNS8/IE6. That means that it will continue to be the most popular combo choice for DNS users as it is for non-SR users.
In other words, you can proselytize an alternate browser till you're blue in the face, but its unlikely your "faith work" will move any popular mountains. People will gravitate towards the path of least cost, which is IE7 whether they use SR or not.
MS may not be virtuous, but its an on-going winner -- at least until PCs begin to vanish as a major consumer gizmo, which should happen over the course of the next decade.
Bruce
I agree with the anti-MS
I agree with the anti-MS side of this discussion. IE 6 is simply not usable, in my opinion, in comparison with virtually every other browser out there. I need my tabs!
IE 6 is a horrendous loser, from my perspective. When I need to stoop to IE compatability, I run something like SlimBrowser, which has more-or-less perfect compatibility but not IE 6's retarded interface.
All those who believe that the easiest route is the best route should immediately drop using DNS at all, if they possibly can. I don't think that the easiest route is the most efficient route, and I intend to continue to use DNS and alternatives to IE as long as its interface is so woefully bad.
Maybe the best compatibility will be between DNS and IE, and maybe the preferred auto will be a Model T, but I'm not going to let that fact choose my options for me.
I think if a person will
I think if a person will make a decision strictly on this issue of needing Dragon, and compatiability with a browser, they'll prefer IE 7. And yet not all people who use Dragon will make a decision strictly on that basis. I mean it depends how totally essential Dragon is to their computing, and how workable the other browsers are with Dragon.
And I think the other browsers may still be good enough with Dragon, that they (the Dragon users) may have choices, particularly if the other browsers do other things the user likes better.
I mean, what does it take to use Dragon fairly effectively with Firefox and Opera. A knowledge of keyboard shortcuts, maybe some macros . . . Although I do without the macros, because I only have Dragon 8, standard edition, and don't know if I can make any macros out of that program, don't think so. In any event, I can type, and use the mouse, some. I just need Dragon at times, to gives my hands a rest. The same with Keyboard alternatives to the mouse. I had fairly bad repetitive strain problems for years, but using the keyboard more (instead of the mouse), and Dragon have helped me. Dragon's compatitbility with a browser will not be the final/total/conclusive thing on which browser I will use, because I can see that it still works quite well for me with Firefox, and with Opera. Therefore, I can consider other factors. Others may have different needs.
On how good IE 7 will be, it remains to be seen I was a big supporter of Netscape over IE years ago, because I hated the big monopoly Microsoft. But when Netscape sold themselves to America OnLine, I changed my thinking. Then it was just one monopoly versus another, no longer David (Netscape) versus Goliath (Microsoft). I still think the consumer is better off if after IE 7 comes out, the view is that the competing browsers each has advantages, and that IE 7 is not clearly better. That way, the other browsers can stay in business, and push Microsoft to continue to develop its browser, and not go to sleep on us. We shall see.
Quote:In Opera, when you use
In Opera, when you use the mouse to open a menu item, such as the Bookmarks menu and in Firefox too, no letter in any of the items in the menu (bookmark folders or mere bookmarks) is underlined. However, if you use the keyboard to open the bookmarks menu item in Opera, or if you use voice activation in Opera to do the same, suddenly when the menu opens, the items in it generally have one letter of the word in each item under the menu item underlined, so you know what letter to press on the keyboard, or to say in voice activation, to Open the bookmark or the bookmark folder.
I hadn't realized this, nor that in Firefox Bookmarks you can approximate it to a degree by saying "press [alpha]", which will take you to the first entry of those beginning with whatever value [alpha] has.
Like most browsers' bookmarks/favorites capability, that of Firefox is so miserably lame that I don't use it.
Bruce
On balance you make a good
On balance you make a good argument for Opera vs. Firefox, but you neglect two points:
1. Opera, like IE, is a closed shop limited to the creativity of its developers/owners, whereas Firefox is an open shop that potentially benefits from the creativity of it community of users/developers. In the long run, I think that might redound to its superiority.
The Firefox we are discussing today may be measurably better three months from now due to user extensions.
Still, the choice of the individual users concerns CURRENT options, so maybe other users will agree with you and adopt Opera. (Actually, we know that even the vast majority of SR users, like non-SR users, are going to stick with IE unless it blows up their systems. Inertia is a silent partner of a monopolist.)
2. Users like me who write scripts largely surmount all the differences you cite. With scripting my Firefox is much more nimble than your Opera. Again, this isn't relevant to the typical SR user who doesn't use scripting.
BTW, I just tried Opera 8 and still think its text looks ugly regardless of font style or size. It must be the way they render their fonts -- they just look ugly to me. Its like the difference between Matrox and other display adapters: To my eye, none of them can render text as gorgeously as the Matrox, doddering though it may be in the gaming world.
I wonder if the Opera font rendering gets better if you buy it rather than use the free version?
Bruce
On open versus closed, it is
On open versus closed, it is a benefit for Firefox (encouraging developers to help-out, world wide), but can be a minus too, because the bad guys--virus and worm spreaders--can see it too.
On the font, I don't see a difference. Part of the issue may be getting familiar enough with Opera to dump some of the toolbars that aren't needed and that take up space. I don't use a "Main" tool bar or a personal tool bar. When there's as much space to view a web page in Opera as in Firefox, then the pages look similar.
On the ad, it does take up space that's otherwise wasted. If you get rid of the ad, the toolbars take up only the space that you need, and the viewable screen becomes better. It becomes more pleasant to operate with. I experimented with the browser with that ad for a month or two, and then decided I liked so many of the features of the Opera browser (including at this point, it's greater use of keyboard alternatives) that I'd help the developers out (competition between the browsers is a good thing
No? So I paid my small fee and got rid of the ad.
The Matrox? Not sure what that is?
Matrox is the other Canadian
Matrox is the other Canadian display adapter maker, i.e., not ATI. They missed the 3d/gaming wave but still make the best 2D display adapters around (although the older 450/550 models really need a little active cooling or else they will burn up after a year or two of heavy use).
Just to clarify, my complaint about the ugly fonts in Opera is just about the ugly fonts in Opera and not about extraneous layout matters -- the fonts are about as ugly as anything I've seen since the days of 320x240 games with occasional text. Its how they're rendered. Since I spend so much time browsing, I want my browser to be easy on the eyes. However, I admit this is purely a subjective matter -- others won't be bothered by the fonts no matter how ungainly they may seem.
Since you bought the browser (good show!), maybe you can tell if the purchased version has better fonts than the freebie version? Based on your comments, it seems likely to me that's the case.
Bruce
Bruce, I don't understand
Bruce,
I don't understand your "ugly," font comment. I just went on a web page in Opera. At the bottom of my Opera browser (on what's called the "status bar)," I have two buttons that I was easily able to add to the browser: one to view in Internet Explorer any page I'm on in Opera, and the other to view the same page in Firefox. All it takes is one click of the mouse on one of these buttons to do that. that is to compare the page in Opera (to how it appears in one of these other browsers).
I clicked on the Firefox button to view the page I had been looking at in Opera. I mean now I'm looking at these pages back and forth. I'm going alt tab, to see the view change--from Firefox to Opera, back to Firefox, to Opera. Alt/tab, alt/tab/alt/tab, etc. (The way I can move between browsers showing the same page.
These pages are 100 percent identical. No difference!!! The same font is being used. It's even the same size. Now of course, "ugly" is in the eye of the beholder. Still, this font issue is beyond me. I have fairly good vision--20/20 (corrected with bifocals: sigh, I'm getting old). And I can see identical. If Opera is ugly, than Firefox is, too. But really, neither is.
Now as I have said, Opera has a much better Zoom feature than Firefox. For those with visual impairments, it significantly eases the ability of a user (with a minimum number of keystrokes or mouseclicks) to increase the size of text AND graphics. Still, you don't need to have a visual impairment to enjoy it. I sit in front of my computer for a long time too, and sometimes my eyes get bleary. Opera makes it easier to change the font size.
In sum, I think the Opera fonts look fine and the appearance of the Opera browser (with the toolbars and panels I've set up) beautiful.
Quote:I don't understand
I don't understand your "ugly," font comment. [...snipped verbiage...] In sum, I think the Opera fonts look fine and the appearance of the Opera browser (with the toolbars and panels I've set up) beautiful
Well, I was wrong. One sees what one expects to see, and based on the jagged-edge, roll-your-own style of fonts in Opera 6 and 7, I expected to see the same in 8 in my brief perusal. Given your insistence, I re-installed Opera 8 after I had uninstalled it and took a careful look.
Its clear that they must have shifted their fonts, perhaps adopting an industry standard solution, because they now look just like those in IE6 and Firefox, as you note.
At the same time, applying the "one sees what one expects to see" criterion: While I'm fine with "fine", I think "beautiful" is a fanciful exaggeration not unrelated to the fact that you bought Opera -- i.e., its rare a person pays money for something and then publicly states "I made a mistake". You've bought into the Opera story and can't be expected to proved an objective view.
Opera is OK but no better than the other two. While the ads in the free version do detract from the view, I know from experience that one quickly learns to ignore them, although those god-awful fonts were a necessary evil. But if it truly looks "beautiful" to you, I don't doubt it does!
I think the next step for you is to get into scripting so you can save yourself excessive command and control verbiage using powerful, succinct scripts
Bruce
Just one comment on your
Just one comment on your idea that I'm not objective because I bought Opera. I didn't buy for a couple of months,after using the version of Opera I had WITH the ad) but found that I was using the Opera browser more than Firefox because I enjoyed it more. It had features I could mention (that Firefox doesn't have) that are outside the scope of this forum. I made Opera my default browser, even with the ad. It was only at that point, after I was hooked on it, over Firefox, that I bought.
I do think my setup looks beautiful, though initially it didn't. It took me awhile to find the toolbar setup, and skins I liked. Still, my main point is that it was only when I became hooked on Opera that I bought it. Therefore, I'm not touting it BECAUSE I bought it. That's putting the "cart" (so to speak) before "the horse." Eh?
Can I get into "scripting"
Can I get into "scripting" if I only have Dragon, vers. 8, standard addition? I mean, voice activation is reasonable for me. Maybe, it would be too much work. I'm the lazy sort.
Not a computer geek.
NatLink/Vocola is the way to
NatLink/Vocola is the way to go, although they do require a bit of programming savvy. Scott Weinstein probably has the "official" link nowadays:
http://speechwiki.org/NL/HomePage.html
There is a support group at:
http://harvee.org/mailman/listinfo/natpython
although be advised its programmer-oriented. Still, the community appears to be supportive, and the price is right: free for the download
Bruce
They may have decided to use
They may have decided to use the system fonts. It would make more sense and that's what they look like to me.
I only use Opera to make sure you can read pages. I'd use it more if it allowed some add-ons that I use, namely Roboform, to work but I understand they are against the idea. I know they have their own "Password Manager" built in, but I use Robo for more than just that part.
I haven't played around with Opera's voice ability, but my brief read gives me the impression it's a tinkertoy. It apparently requires you to click a button to work. I guess Opera doesn't like people that can't push a key or perform a mouse click. It sure took my opinion of them down a couple of notches when I realized that.
I'm really leaning more and more toward Firefox. I have some pretty nifty extensions in it already. From the system logs, it appears a large portion of visitors here use Firefox also.
On Opera's voice capability,
On Opera's voice capability, it has a robotic voice (to be set at male and/or female), which can read back articles, text and is really quite impressive. I mean amazing for a robot, which doesn't know what it's reading.
You said: "I haven't played around with Opera's voice ability, but my brief read gives me the impression it's a tinkertoy. It apparently requires you to click a button to work. I guess Opera doesn't like people that can't push a key or perform a mouse click."
I don't think what you say is right. Opera doesn't require you to click a button to make the voice function listen to you (except that you do have to enable it). Once you've done that, as long as you go to tools/peferences/advanced/ and voice, and enable voice, make sure the talk key mode setting is, "key not required to talk." If you set it that way, you don't have to push a key or perform a mouse click.
Opera's voice engine probably is a tinkertoy now in terms of the ability to navigate a page. I haven't played with that aspect much since I have Dragon, and know that that is a lot more sophisticated. I have played more with the voice playback feature in Opera which is, in fact, fairly "neat." I've played back a couple Edgar Allen Poe short stories and they didn't sound half bad.
I don't have that playback feature in my Dragon, version 8, standard ed.
On the Opera bulletin boards, I've tried to encourage Opera developers to use numbers to mark links on their web pages, and then navigate with them through their voice system. (Of course, you would want to be able to toggle the numbers on and off).
I mean, Opera unlike Firefox and IE, has moved into voice. It's possible they could come up with a system (in a later version) that might makes Dragon unnecessary for web browsing. That would be a browser plus, for those people, who don't want to shell out the cash for Dragon, and would just like the voice navigation capability when they browse. A tinkertoy today, can become something substantial tomorrow.
All that the browser would have to do is "number" links, and be able to recognize when a person says a number (which isn't really that many words).
lem729 wrote:You said: "I
You said: "I haven't played around with Opera's voice ability, but my brief read gives me the impression it's a tinkertoy. It apparently requires you to click a button to work. I guess Opera doesn't like people that can't push a key or perform a mouse click."
.
I don't think what you say is right. Opera doesn't require you to click a button to make the voice function listen to you (except that you do have to enable it). Once you've done that, as long as you go to tools/peferences/advanced/ and voice, and enable voice, make sure the talk key mode setting is, "key not required to talk." If you set it that way, you don't have to push a key or perform a mouse click.
I got my information from their short tutorial when you install the speech programs. It never mentioned a hands-free setting. Since it's rarely used on my machine, I didn't attempt to dig any further. They should mention that setting in their tutorial.
I'm not sure what you're
I'm not sure what you're using Roboform for, in addition to filling out passwords, data field with name, address, etc. But you're right it can't be used with Opera.
http://www.opera.com/support/search/supsearch.dml?...
The "Wand" feature in Opera is quite nice, and in some aspects has overlap with Roboform, daving passwords, data field. My understanding of Roboform is that it's a one-click web form filler and password manager. It memorizes online passwords, fills login forms with memorized info, etc. (Of course, I'm sure it must be able to do more, or you wouldn't be lamenting its not being present in Opera). On Opera's wand feature, see . . .
http://www.opera.com/features/wand/
Regarding other data you want to save, you can use the Notes function.
http://help.opera.com/Windows/8.02/en/notes.html
This is a very handy function that I haven't seen available in any other browser. It's particularly good for research, but definitely good for saving data.
I know some Opera users have lobbied for it, and have an interest in seeing Roboform become compatible with Opera, but there may've been some security concerns about permitting Roboform, and the cost/expense to make it compatible.
I wouldn't be without RoboForm!
I use RoboForm to maintain records not only of passwords but also notes and as a password generator. I've never had any security issues with RoboForm and I've used it for a very long time. Does Opera encrypt this information or is it clear text?
I won't be without RoboForm and I'd never even want to attempt to convert the hundreds of passwords/login information and other data to something else. There's also a Pocket PC version so I can take the info with me. Unfortunately the PPC version doesn't autofill as the PC version does. There's also a USB Flash Drive version that you can carry with you.
This is from RoboForm's website:
Roboform is the top-rated Password Manager and Web Form Filler that completely automates password entering and form filling.
RoboForm was named PC Magazine Editor's Choice, and CNET Download.com's Software of the Year.
RoboForm:
That sounds like a pretty
That sounds like a pretty good program. I don't do that much logging in a daily basis, so it wouldn't be essential for me. The Wand feature in Opera is sufficient for my purposes. And I love the "Notes" function/feature in Firefox which let you right click on anything on a web page, and copy it over to a Notes panel, where you can save it. If you save it, then if you just click on that note, it brings the link up, and you can go back to where you found it. You can then put a number of your "notes" into a folder. For purposes of research (let's say I'm researching Voice Recognition)it's very useful. It's also nice for saving forms, and other information. Thus, it might do some of what Roboform does for you, in addition to the Wand feature. It is quite different from bookmarks! Still, I understand that that Roborform program is essential for you.
I did go onto the Opera bulletin boards, and there was a lot of discussion involving some people who would like to have that Roboform program. And they were passionate in favor of it. As I mentioned, there were some security considerations that were raised in the discussions, and also an expense issue. It was very complex and a bit over my head. And I might get dizzy trying to find the discussion again, to pass along to you more precisely what the arguments were pro versus con. I guess one has to make a decision about a browser based upon the programs that are important to you. At least Firefox has that Roboform program.
If it comes out in a later edition of Opera, and I can remember, I will let you know.
lem729 wrote:I did go onto
I did go onto the Opera bulletin boards, and there was a lot of discussion involving some people who would like to have that Roboform program. And they were passionate in favor of it. As I mentioned, there were some security considerations that were raised in the discussions, and also an expense issue. It was very complex and a bit over my head. And I might get dizzy trying to find the discussion again, to pass along to you more precisely what the arguments were pro versus con. I guess one has to make a decision about a browser based upon the programs that are important to you. At least Firefox has that Roboform program.
If you mean expense for RoboForm, it's free but limited in how many passcards it can hold. It may have other limitations over time, but it's not that expensive. The company offers a low-income option for signing up also. I bought 2 licenses (1 with an add-on) and it was under $30 if I recall correctly. I seem to recall a lower price for the secondary license also.
That was about 3 years ago, but I used the free version for a very long time before that! Let me know if you find out they've finally given in and let RoboForm make a version for Opera.
No, it had to do with the
No, it had to do with the work that would have to be done with the Opera program, to make it compatible. I wish I had saved the discussion, as I could pass along the quote. The person (an Opera spokesperson) was saying that they had limited resources and higher priorites at the time). They know that quite a few users would like the probram, but I think it's not a front burner issue for them. Others raised a security isssue in terms of the program. One person with disabilities made an impassioned argument for it. Of course, people just vent in these forums. It gives one a chance to say what one wants, doesn't mean it's being listened to. But who knows: it might be.
There is one issue you might
There is one issue you might address that would be relevant to potential Opera adopters: Opera 6 was my primary browser as a matter of principle, but it was an order of magnitude buggier than IE5/6, i.e., it crashed approximately 5-10 times as much.
Working in the extended menus of Firefox and Thunderbird to script them, I would say that they are even buggier than that, although for just browsing without using many of their extended features they work just fine.
The question: How buggy is Opera 8 compared to IE6 and Firefox?
Bruce
Opera 8.02 hardly ever
Opera 8.02 hardly ever crashes for me. I don't see it as buggier than Firefox. In fact I can have a far greater number of tabs open in Opera (and it will function smoothly) than I can in Firefox. So I see the bugginess the other way around. Still, you were referrring to a much older version of Opera, and I can't speak to it.
A few months ago, there was a security alert that with Firefox, we were told not to do banking or secure functions with any other tabs open, because there was a risk that your private date could be stolen. While that has since, I believe, been fixed, Opera never had that problem.
Indeed, I think there are greater risks with Firefox, than with Opera. This is in part because of the themes/extensions done by third parties (who can tamper with the Firefox code since it's open source). The amount of review that Firefox does with these third party themes/extensions is extremely limited, and they can be quite buggy). I uninstalled the Adbrowser extension once (one of the generally better extensions there), didn't know you were supposed to do it in Safe Mode (at the time, no one was saying you had to do it that way then), and there was an uninstall icon with the Firefox extension. I clicked on that and was dead, and ended up losing my whole extension function. I had to uninstall Firefox, and reinstall it to get back into business.
I've never had problems like that with Opera 8. Whatever has been added to the Opera browser goes through the main development team, which gives me some comfort that it has been blessed by that team as safe and effective for the browser. No such central review mechanism of comparable close scrutiny takes place (it is my understanding) with the Firefox extensions/themes. The risk is that they could emperil the Firefox browser in a fundamental way.
Hello Lem, I appreciate your
Hello Lem,
I appreciate your remarks in favour of Opera. Especially for visually impaired these remarks are very valuable.
However for hands-free browsing I think you miss the point. It is not how it can be done by giving a lot of "press" commands, and not by mentioning some links as well. This last trick is built in with NaturallySpeaking in IE for a long time. It is, IMHO, not a practical way to browse hands-free.
It is the numbers that make it easy. So you can say each time: "choose #" of "follow #". And for this you need macros.
The possibilities up to now that make number links are:
Moreover it works better if the numbers are restored automatically in each new page. This can be done by the extension itself (like Mouseless Browsing) or by the speech recognition macro (like in Hit-a-hint or LazyCat).
Although more sympathy goes for Mouseless Browsing, as was discussed in a previous thread, still Hit-a-hint has some advantages, for example the hints are shown while the page is loading, while Mouseless Browsing waits until the loading of the page has been finished.
If the necessary keystrokes are a bit obscure (for example in a numeric keypad or accompanied by the "ctrl" key) they will perform equally good with speech recognition macros while they interfere less with other keystrokes.
Just my take, Quintijn
I don't disagree with you,
I don't disagree with you, Quintijn, that the numbers are a nice system. On Opera, what I'm saying is that it is in the ballpark. You don't have to say a lot of "presses," just one, "press comma," to start link search, a small box that opens in the lower left side of the page. Then pick a word from the link you want to open, maybe, "hurricane" and say it. Then say, "press enter." Five chances out of six, that will open the link.
So is that hard or no? Now if there are two links with the word,"hurricane," there's a fifty percent chance, the wrong link might be highlighted (the first link with the word "hurricane" is the one that will be highlighted. Then you just say "press f3 to scroll to the next link with that word. And you open it.
I agree IE is the easiest with Dragon, with its "click link" setup, and then "choose 15. That's because Dragon (for whatever reasons)--I could be cynical and think money is involved
-- was designed to operate with IE6.
Firefox's number's extension put it into play with IE (though the extensions seem to have kinks in them a bit). But I think Opera is still relatively easy with the "press comma" (to open the search link box), and then say a word in the link you want to open.
If they're all do-able with Dragon, then you may be able to more easily consider the other browser features in making your choice.
I addressed one element of
I addressed one element of your post here because this thread is so unfrayed as to be unreadable and because this post introduced a new topic that deserves it own thread:
http://www.speechcomputing.com/node/308
Bruce
An ostensibly Only Today
An ostensibly Only Today Offering for an ad-free version of Opera (also a free download). As with you, Bruce, and your post above, my concern is that putting mention of this one-day offering here would be noticed by hardly anyone, and the day would pass. Therefore, the mention of the offering is:
http://www.speechcomputing.com/node/341
Opera does have many accessibility features, and as I mentioned the link search method of using the keyboard is a plus for people with problems using the mouse. Also, it seems to work quite well with Dragon.
Since people don't like to pay for browsers, and don't like ads, today alone is a chance to get Opera free, and without ads.