Registering and logging in removes this ad.
Registering and logging in removes this ad.
Installing DNS 10
Submitted by MarkUK on Sat, 09/06/2008 - 14:47.
I think it is worth recording that DNS10 does not give any warning during installation if you try to put it on a computer without SSE2 support.
I am currently using a 7 year old Asus A7V333 based computer with an Athlon XP1800 cpu (1G ram)and, although I was fairly dubious, I decided to give it a try. The installation went through completely without a hitch and no warning at all (I had previously removed 9.5 using the removal tool) and the problem only came with the "A serious error occurred while initializing the NaturallySpeaking speech engine. Please try reinstalling to correct this problem." message... which was not very helpful, and as expected the same thing happened after a reinstall and restart.
There is a TechNote Number: 6027, but I cannot help thinking that Nuance should have put the CPU-Z check in the installation and certainly into the installation requirements, rather than stating that it will run on a Pentium 1Ghz or equivalent AMD system!
Mark
We will probably never get a
We will probably never get a clear explanation of the thinking that went into making the product dependent on the presence of the SSE2 instruction set. Without knowing the details, we can only speculate it was a management decision to cut development costs. After all, there must have been SSE support in the previous version, so it probably would not have impossible to include both instruction sets.
Bruce
Similar to when they started using MMX
We will probably never get a clear explanation of the thinking that went into making the product dependent on the presence of the SSE2 instruction set. Without knowing the details, we can only speculate it was a management decision to cut development costs. After all, there must have been SSE support in the previous version, so it probably would not have impossible to include both instruction sets.
I think I can safely guess that the SSE2 instruction set is a large part in the new speed and accuracy portions as well as readying for 64 bit operation.
SSE2 extends MMX instructions to operate on XMM registers, allowing the programmer to completely avoid the eight 64-bit MMX registers "aliased" on the original IA-32 floating point register stack. This permits mixing integer SIMD and scalar floating point operations without the mode switching required between MMX and x87 floating point operations. However, this is over-shadowed by the value of being able to perform MMX operations on the wider SSE registers.
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SSE2
So perhaps they were at the end of what could be done with the older instructions without a lot of work.
Just my observation.
Skip
Skip, I don't doubt the new
Skip,
I don't doubt the new instructions add to the product's speed. I'm questioning the decision to exclude users with older machines -- the programming was already in prior versions, so their inclusion would not have been that much of technical problem it seems to me. At load time, the program could have branched to the old or new instructions.
I don't see the big deal except somebody in management decided to squeeze a few more bucks out of the development phase. Strikes me as false economy, at least from the perspective of the user community. That would have made 10 a transition product bridging the old and new technologies. Its the inclusive, conservative type of decision M$ has made repeatedly over the years.
Bruce
BruceCyr wrote: Skip, I
Skip,
I don't doubt the new instructions add to the product's speed. I'm questioning the decision to exclude users with older machines -- the programming was already in prior versions, so their inclusion would not have been that much of technical problem it seems to me. At load time, the program could have branched to the old or new instructions.
I don't see the big deal except somebody in management decided to squeeze a few more bucks out of the development phase. Strikes me as false economy, at least from the perspective of the user community. That would have made 10 a transition product bridging the old and new technologies. Its the inclusive, conservative type of decision M$ has made repeatedly over the years.
Bruce
Bruce,
You give management too much credit. Given the lack of technical knowledge and understanding of DNS as regards the "management" personnel, I doubt seriously that that thought ever crossed their minds. They simply don't understand enough to think in that manner.
Aside from the major boo-boos with regard to install problems and failing to put forth the effort to notify end-users about having the necessary processors and motherboards (hardware technology) to support SSE2, 95% of the new features and improvements in DNS 10 absolutely require SSE2. In addition, Skip is pretty close to being right on the money.
As regards the complexity of creating a double version that would support either MMX/x87 or SSE2, you would in essence be making a decision to either implement a slightly improved DNS 9.5, or install DNS 10. This would increase the size of the install (number of CDs and/or DVDs) by two. Besides, of what real value would this be to the end user other than fooling them into thinking that they have DNS 10, which simply would not be true.
In addition, although Nuance has been slow on the uptake, there are numerous new technotes relative to DNS 10 that completely explain all of these issues, as well as provide solutions to the install problems. For example, the first technote (6001) regarding install problems and workarounds has been quickly followed with technote 6017. There is also a reasonably complete technote with regard to explaining the problems with SSE2 support.
The architectures that are not supported want to be in the Smithsonian. They simply will not support Visual C++ runtime for Dragon NaturallySpeaking, which is necessary in order to support the majority of the new features and improvements. The Visual C++ runtime for Dragon NaturallySpeaking is actually the Visual C++ runtime library 2008. Try installing that on any of these architectures. It just ain't going to happen. If these architectures can't support this runtime library, then they can't support DNS 10. Also, the purpose of the Visual C++ runtime for Dragon NaturallySpeaking is to add support for current versions of Net Framework, which will not install on these systems anyway. Nuance is simply making inroads to being able to support 64-bit versions of Windows, as well as looking down the road to the new Intel architectures that will come with the release of Nehalem.
Yes, there's a certain amount of cost cutting or cost-saving involved in this decision. But the real issue is why should Nuance extend the extra cost to provide pseudo-versions of DNS 10, which end up being really DNS 9.5, when the benefit to the end-user would be negligible for those users with systems that don't support SSE2. To my way of thinking, it would be more unethical and perhaps even illegal to provide such. If your system does not support SSE2, just continue to use DNS 9.5. Nuance is accepting returns and issuing refunds to those users who cannot make use of DNS 10 for this reason.
Chuck Runquist
Former Dragon NaturallySpeaking SDK & Senior Technical Solutions PM for DNS with Lernout & Hauspie (L&H)
Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the universe is winning. ~Rich Cook
Chuck Runquist wrote: If
If your system does not support SSE2, just continue to use DNS 9.5. Nuance is accepting returns and issuing refunds to those users who cannot make use of DNS 10 for this reason.
I think what's happening here is that people are keeping their computers until they are forced to upgrade. Not everyone buys the latest geewhiz bang computer when it comes out. Most users just don't have that kind of money. Even businesses will only upgrade systems every few years.
So with that said, the end result will be that Dragon 10 (and the unwitting victim will be SR) will be leaving a very bad taste with a LOT of purchasers. Even though the refund is available, I think they will be soured on the entire experience.
Not good for the industry as a whole, especially not good for Nuance, but perhaps a plus for Microsoft's SR system. Why? Vista's SR will wind up being perceived as a bigger plus (even with it's shortcomings) because it's included with Vista, apparently doesn't require the SSE2 instruction set and isn't a Nuance product.
I really think, Smithsonian aside, that Nuance took the wrong road on this one.
Probably their best bet would be to have stickers made up for their boxes that BOLDLY say "Intel Pentium 4 or equivalent OR AMD Opteron or Athlon 64 or equivalent required to run this version."
It's a shame to know that I've come to the end of the road with Dragon (at least for now). It was a fun trip though.
My 2¢'s worth.
Skip
It's a shame to know that
It's a shame to know that I've come to the end of the road with Dragon (at least for now). It was a fun trip though.
My 2¢'s worth.
Skip
Well, Skip, if that is true, and if you are running Vista, you might take a hard look at WSR. It is free, it runs in the 32 bit or the x64 version, it is very accurate, you can write your own macros, or download some really useful one produced by other developers, and it has a rapidly developing band of users who are making significant contributions to its improvements. Moreover, the developers also seem to take the time to read the user groups, to respond to posts, and to have a genuine interest in adding to the power. You might want to have a look at the Yahoo speech recognition group run by Itamar (referenced in other posts here). Right now, there is is a lengthy discussion going on related to the David Pogue blog post, about whether WSR is better than DNS, but don't let the vitrol scare you off.
For me, the bottom line was that it worked in Vista x64, and nothing else did, and having moved to it our of desperation, I found that it did everything I wanted. Give it a shot.
Frank Abbott
By the time I'm able to get
By the time I'm able to get Vista, they will have ZVPU's instead of CPU's and speeds will be in colors not GigaHertz.
Oh well... I shall trundle forth with the Smithsonian unit I'm using.
Chuck, Thanks for sharing
Chuck,
Thanks for sharing your insight -- its always unique and informative.
I can't accept your argument that including two different libraries -- one based on earlier editions for SSE instructions and another new one for SSE2 instructions -- would amount to limiting 10 to 9.5. By definition, users with the SSE2-capable CPUs would have gotten a DNS 10.
I can't dispute your claim that version 10 is nothing more than a rewrite for the SSE2 instruction set and a preparation for 64-bit OSes. I can't because Nuance/Dragon is a publicity-phobic, paranoid shop. Elsewhere James Richards has usefully contrasted the attitudes of M$ and Nuance/Dragon (http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ms-speech/messa...), so I won't elaborate the obvious. However, I can't avoid registering a slight suspicion that 10 might involve slightly more improvement than you admit.
Even if there were functional reasons for making 10 incompatible with older CPUs, courtesy and common sense dictate that such information be conveyed to potential purchasers so that they can make informed decisions rather than waste their time and money. In most cases, people who use such old CPUs aren't able to upgrade at will, or else they're so cantankerous they won't do so simply because some program requires it (insert your favorite curmudgeonly exemplar here).
I'm not blaming you for this SNAFU, but I am calling it a major SNAFU. Indeed, I'm grateful for the few tidbits you can scatter our way
Bruce
Quote: There is also a
There is also a reasonably complete technote with regard to explaining the problems with SSE2 support
Yes, and I found it, but how many purchasers of DNS10 are going to be looking at Nuance Technotes before they actually purchase the beast?
Mark
V 10 failed installation
I had a world of trouble from just this SSE2 problem and blogged here ad nauseam on the topic. You may find that trying to install v 10 has done a lot of damage to your registry. Look at this entry in the Nuance knowledge base for some help:
http://knowledgebase.nuance.com/view.asp?60VQ=JKKL...
Even after I went through the procedure, there were still many DNS10 files all over my system that had to be found and eliminated individually.
I'm still having problems with completely unrelated DLLs that mysteriously vanished and a nine-day gap in my Mozilla Thunderbird memory (right at the time I was cleaning up)that's gone. The Glary utilities (Google) were helpful in repairing the registry. I had to reinstall several apps from scratch.
Good luck,
Dan Lufkin
Quote: http://knowledgebase.
http://knowledgebase.nuance.com/view.asp?60VQ=JKKL&5d7r4B=zn07ny%2070v05...
This links to "How to completely uninstall Dragon NaturallySpeaking 9"
Wrong link I suspect. No problems seen as yet DNS9.5 reinstalled OK. In any event I plan to build a new machine very soon.
Mark
For those wondering how to
For those wondering how to see if your cpu has the sse2 instruction set, use the free utility on this page: http://www.cpuid.com/cpuz.php
Then read the line labeled "Instructions" to see if SSE2 is there.
Dragon10Remover.exe
Dan,
First, the DNS95remove.exe utility won't clean up DNS 10. It doesn't even touch any of the registry entries or files/folders associated with DNS 10.
Nuance has provided a utility specifically for removing DNS 10 files and registry entries (Dragon10Remover.exe). You can find it in technote 6002 in the Nuance support knowledgebase:
http://knowledgebase.nuance.com/view.asp?60VQ=KFJH...
Second, your problems with other applications and the loss and dropped out of information has to do with your playing around with the registry and attempting to remove all the DNS 10 entries. Given that DNS 10 is Windows logo certified, VeriTest would have rejected DNS 10 had it interfered with any other application or caused these kinds of problems relative to the the registry for other applications. Having been responsible for logo certification for DNS while I was at L&H (Lernout & Hauspie), I'm very familiar with the logo certification process and what is required before certification is granted to any application.
The other possibility is that there may have been some filesystem errors or defrag problems that could have caused your nightmare with getting rid of DNS 10, or even have interfered with the install in terms of your experience in getting your system back to square one. The problems that you note in your post are typical of this type of underlying timebomb waiting for a chance to come to the front and make life hell.
Regardless, you should not have had the kinds of problems getting rid of DNS 10 that you had. I had one system in my repertoire of systems that I attempted to install DNS 10 on and had to go back to DNS 9.5 temporarily. I did not experience any of the problems that you note in your post. However, for everyone else and just for future reference, do not use the DNS95remove.exe utility when attempting to remove any remnants of DNS 10. It doesn't work and only removes anything left over from DNS 9-9.5. It doesn't touch anything relative to DNS 10. Use the Dragon10Remover.exe if you run into problems with DNS 10 and need to ensure that it is completely removed from your system.
Chuck Runquist
Former Dragon NaturallySpeaking SDK & Senior Technical Solutions PM for DNS
"Life's Rule #1: Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend." (Variant of Murphy's Law - Edward A. Murphy, Jr)
It takes a really smart guy
It takes a really smart guy to get things so royally fouled up
I'm not up to Dan's level, but I've pulled some notable ones, and not all that long ago.
Bruce
BruceCyr wrote: It takes a
It takes a really smart guy to get things so royally fouled up
I'm not up to Dan's level, but I've pulled some notable ones, and not all that long ago.
Bruce
When I used to do technical support, once I got those users who were hot under the collar to calm down a little bit, I used to get the response, "I'm so stupid, I'm just not that knowledgeable."
My standard reply was something that I use quite frequently, "A little bit of knowledge is dangerous, a lot of knowledge is just downright fatal." I can't count on both hands and both feet the number of times that I was so smart that I screwed up everything royally. I've had times where it took several days to undo what my so thorough knowledge and understanding made me do.
In my case, the more knowledge that you have, the more likely you are to ignore common sense. The more some of us know, the greater propensity to jump off the cliff before looking first.
Chuck Runquist
Former Dragon NaturallySpeaking SDK & Senior Technical Solutions PM for DNS for Lernout & Hauspie (L&H)
If computers get too powerful, we can organize them into a committee - that will do them in. - Bradley's Bromide
The smart person knows that
The smart person knows that he doesn't know everything and isn't afraid to either admit it or ask for help.
Interesting,
Interesting,
I have come back from PC World in Dublin, and there is not a sign of DNS on the shelves, only VV
Quentin
Would one possibility be
Would one possibility be that DNS 10 simply isn't available there yet? Considering that Nuance owns both products
Lunis
DNS 10 chaos
Chuck, I think you may be on to something. Recall that I had Hell's own time back in April when I was first on the block to install the Nuance PDF Converter v. 5 and found a file on the installation disk that positively identified (by Prevx) as very recent German malware. We all agreed that it couldn't actually have happened, but there I was. Finally, the only way I could keep MS Outlook from eating up 98% of the CPU cycles running as a process was to scrub Outlook and Explorer and install Mozilla. (Hundreds of Google hits, none of which worked.) Even system recovery didn't help much. In the course of all this, I had some very well qualified help and advice. My machine is a Compaq/HP Presario bought August 2004 which had been the soul of dependability up till April.
I do believe that what I should do is bite the bullet and either do a complete system re-installation and re-flash the BIOS or give the Compaq to my granddaughter and move on with a brand-new PC before XP vanishes for good. I had been hoping to finesse Vista.
BTW, Nuance didn't have that v 10 remover up when I was hit. It was N. tech support that suggested the 9.5 remover and I'd pretty well gotten back to what passes around here for normal when the v 10 remover hit the stands.
Lufkin's Law: Never use a computer too big to throw out of the window.
Dan