my ~1000$ software is crashing. I have a dragon.log. What do I do with it? its enormous and over 10,000 lines in a week
Submitted by rsiguy on Thu, 05/01/2008 - 00:48.
well just like the title says. in one week it's crashed three times. The most recent at the end of the file. no error message, just suddenly vanishes from working. it dies and vanishes exactly when I try to perform a specific dragon operation, like correcting, like adding to the vocabulary, I think even dictating once caused it to crash. Generally my system is okay, at a Pentium 4 with hyper threading, 2.6 GHz, 2 GB RAM. But is there some more specific things that could be useful to explain this behavior?
I would love to just post that enormous blog here. Have some experts with experience find my problem for me. Except that so enormous I do not want to torture any soul with it. Any suggestions... since I can't even attach it here... maybe a web host to put this on?
the only safe thing where it doesn't crash is when I don't use it!! I've tolerated this for years, I'm sick of it, constantly restarting the application. Is this normal? two people with "super systems" have this "frequent crashing" dilemma? for any other program this wouldn't be acceptable... but I've come to expect it of Dragon!!
rsiguy
I think you need to tell the
I think you need to tell the group what operating system this is and what version number and edition of Dragon you are using.
k here please help
oh certainly mr. administrator. I'm using Windows XP professional SP1, and of course I'm using Dragon NaturallySpeaking professional 9.5
http://www.geocities.com/rsigw/Dragon.log ~1 meg
http://www.geocities.com/rsigw/Dragon.zip ~100 kilobytes
well I've uploaded it here. It's 10x smaller inside the zip file. I do know what a pain in the ass this file is to look through, but please, someone give me a hint what I can do to prevent this from crashing
rsiguy wrote: oh certainly
oh certainly mr. administrator. I'm using Windows XP professional SP1, and of course I'm using Dragon NaturallySpeaking professional 9.5
well I've uploaded it here. It's 10x smaller inside the zip file. I do know what a pain in the ass this file is to look through, but please, someone give me a hint what I can do to prevent this from crashing.
First, you say that you're working under Windows XP Professional SP1. If you are, that's your first mistake. DNS 9.5, any addition, is not supported under Windows XP SP1. I'm not surprised you're having problems.
Second, the Dragon log is not designed for the average end user to view or review. It's for the purpose of the programmers and the technical support staff. Only a thorough knowledge of DNS at the programming level would make any of the entries intelligible. Some things are fairly straightforward, but most of the entries are very technical. The entire purpose of the Dragon log is so that you can send it to Nuance so that the programmers can review it.
Third, you're set up of DNS 9.5 is so fractured that it's also no wonder that you're having problems. When you set up DNS initially, don't stray from the default settings. After you have installed it, you can move your profiles to another location by changing the default location for user files. Never, alter the default settings until after you have installed it. In addition, you renamed the location of the program folders as well is the user folders and you install your users on E drive. Changing folder names can cause numerous problems. DNS is not like other applications and it does not like certain things to be changed as dramatically as you have.
Fourth, if you have set up or installed DNS on any drive that is partitioned with logical partitions (i.e., if you're eager I is a logical partition vs. an actual physical drive) DNS does not like this and it does not work well under these conditions. Periodically, access to logical partitions creates timing and execution errors. These issues tend to corrupt your user profiles and result in RPC_server unavailable errors, of which you have a ton. Once these errors begin do occur, your user profile is corrupted beyond repair and your only option is to go to your backup user as soon as these occur. The primary symptom of this type of problem is when DNS spontaneously exits.
Fifth, your Dragon log shows a couple of major Windows system crashes. When Windows crashes during a dictation session when DNS is open and active and you are dictating, the end result is almost always corruption of your user profile.
The bottom line is, your $1000 software installation is full of $1000 mistakes.
What you need to do is the following:
1. Forget about your current users. Export any current custom Vocabulary and/or custom commands and save them to a safe location.
2. Completely uninstall DNS by going to the Windows Control Panel, Add or Remove Programs and performing a normal uninstall so that you preserve your activations (i.e., you access the activation server and restore your activation settings to their status prior to installing DNS). If you don't do this, you will lose an activation.
3. Download and run the DNS95remove.exe utility.
4. Reinstall DNS 9.5 and use the default settings. Particularly with regard to folders, don't play games with reassigning the locations for the program folders or the user folders. You eventually end up creating problems from which you cannot recover. The program files need to be in the proper location on the C drive, and user files need to be in the proper folder (i.e., All Users) under documents and settings. Once you have reinstalled DNS 9.5 Professional and it is functioning properly after creating a new user and importing your custom Vocabulary and/or custom commands, you can move your user files using the options available in the Manage Users dialog. Bottom line is, don't play games with the default settings. It isn't worth the problems that you create for yourself.
5. Don't install DNS on logical partitions. Only install it on physical drives/primary partitions.
6. Before you do any of the above, either install Windows XP service pack 2 (SP2) or wait until Microsoft releases SP3 to the Microsoft update website. If you choose to persist in using Windows XP Professional SP1, you can forget about ever having DNS 9.5 run properly. I don't know why you stuck with SP1, but that was a big mistake because there are any number of applications that will not run or will not run properly under Windows XP SP1. There must be at least 50 technotes on the Microsoft knowledge base website that address issues that are caused specifically as a result of not having upgraded to SP2. If you thought that upgrading to the latest service pack only related to security issues, you thought wrong. Also, you may not be able to upgrade to SP3 without SP2 installed. Regardless, you have to have SP2 in order to run DNS 9.5 reliably. Nuance technical support would tell you flat out and upfront that they cannot help you with running DNS 9.5 under Windows XP SP1.
If you need any other assistance or if you have any other questions, please let me know.
Chuck Runquist
Former Dragon NaturallySpeaking SDK & Senior Technical Solutions Program Manager for DNS
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." -- Mark Twain
Chuck Runquist wrote:
Particularly with regard to folders, don't play games with reassigning the locations for the program folders or the user folders. You eventually end up creating problems from which you cannot recover. The program files need to be in the proper location on the C drive, and user files need to be in the proper folder (i.e., All Users) under documents and settings.
Don't install DNS on logical partitions. Only install it on physical drives/primary partitions.
Chuck, in all my computers that I have had since I commenced using DNS, I have always installed it in a logical partition (usually the J drive that has nothing else but DNS in it), and it has always worked fine, except that it is a little slow as I have mentioned in another post. The user file is located in the Documents and Settings \ All Users \ Applications \ Nuance \ NaturallySpeaking9 \ Users \ [name].
Quentin
crivon1 wrote: Chuck, in
Chuck, in all my computers that I have had since I commenced using DNS, I have always installed it in a logical partition (usually the J drive that has nothing else but DNS in it), and it has always worked fine, except that it is a little slow as I have mentioned in another post. The user file is located in the Documents and Settings \ All Users \ Applications \ Nuance \ NaturallySpeaking9 \ Users \ [name].
Quentin
Quentin,
First, your experience is the exception rather than the rule. I've worked with 12 clients now where they were getting constant RPC server errors. When I reset their systems to physical drives only, the problems all went away immediately. The reason why this is a problem is the way that Windows looks at drive configurations. Current versions of Windows ignore missing drive letters and generally handle the situation where drives are assigned C, D, G, J, K and the like. The missing letters between D drive and G drive, as well as well as G-J, etc. don't have the impact that they had back prior to Windows 98. However, when DNS requests access to a drive for temporary storage when executing COM calls through the RPC server, Windows assigns a drive letter for that purpose (i.e., E:\work\rh8\NaturallySpeaking9\...). This workspace is created and destroyed after use. It draws the information that it needs from the folders where DNS files are stored, whether they be user files and folders or program files and folders. Whether it is caused by Windows itself or DNS, or a combination of the two, the end result is that there are times when access to the workspace drive letter and work folders used either times out or becomes inaccessible. 99.9% of the time this occurs on logical drives. It rarely occurs on physical drives. Nevertheless, I have found that the majority of users that I have assisted who are having problems with RPC_Server Unavailable errors were getting corrupted user files for this reason.
Second, it isn't necessary to partition hard drives anymore. Drives are simply not expensive enough to warrant or justify partitioning anymore. In addition, even if you make a backup (image) of your C drive. Having multiple partitions on your boot drive means that if that drive crashes, you'd better have a good backup or you've lost it all. On the other hand, I have 6 separate SATA 300 drives all totaling over 6 TB. I have them set up much the same way that anyone with logical partitions does. Even Microsoft have technotes Re: cautions when using partition drives, particularly when these drives are partitioned off of the boot drive.
Lastly, in the post that prompted my reply, take a look at the Dragon log. I didn't assume that this user had logical partitions, but looking at the extent of the system crashes and the RPC server errors, some of these looks suspiciously like logical drive errors. The problem with logical drives is timeouts caused by slow access. When engaging the RPC server, COM programs don't have an infinite amount of time for access. If the RPC server remains inaccessible after 3 attempts, the end result is an engine sync error in DNS. It tries again. If the RPC server is again inaccessible, then the whole process times out and DNS exits spontaneously. Having this occur once may not corrupt the user files. Having it occurs several times will corrupt user files. Having a major crash where Windows shuts down, hangs, or an application hangs or freezes during dictation, will cause user corruption. However, this user altered the installation folder(s) in ways that would make it difficult under some conditions for DNS to locate files. You can install DNS to any drive. However, keep the default folder assignments. Programmers assign their files to specific folders and locations for a reason. Going against the grain to the extent that this particular user did is like volunteering for the guillotine. Why make potential trouble for yourself. If you are an experienced MCSE certified system engineer, then you should know how to set up systems in this manner to avoid these types of problems. However, being an MCSE certified systems engineer, I prefer to stay with recommended (Microsoft) hardware/software configurations. I take the approach like the doctor in the joke wherein the patient says to the doctor, "Doctor, it hurts when I do this." To which the doctor replies, "Then don't do that." In short, "if it ain't broke don't fix it" and "if it doesn't work, plug it in."
The proper setup of DNS with partition drives can reduce the propensity for these types of problems to occur. However, using logical partitions increases the probability that you will eventually have problems down the road by a factor of 10. Keep in mind that DNS is timing critical and this is what underlies these types of problems on drives that have logical partitions.
Chuck Runquist
Former Dragon NaturallySpeaking SDK & Senior Technical Solutions PM for DNS
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." -- Mark Twain post and close
Chuck, Far be it from me
Chuck,
Far be it from me to argue with the technicalities that you have quoted, as most of them are a bit beyond me.
However I would say that having additional hard drives is fine if you're using a desktop. However with a laptop, this is not possible unless you carry around additional drives which you have to plug in each time you use the laptop.
My practice has always been to keep my C drive as the OS system only, with the exception of the various programs that come pre-installed, and such other installed programmes that will not go anywhere else. I always install all other programmes, that give an installation choice, in other partitions.. The particularly applies to data files.
The result is that I can image my C drive quickly, and only have to do it following the second Tuesday of the month (Windows update day!), and restoration, following a crash or a virus infestation, is quick, usually whilst having my desktop lunch!
Incidentally, I use the D drive for the fixed size pagefile only and nothing else.
I am surprised that you have found problems using logical partitions for DNS, since it is not exceptional with me, having installed various versions over the years in logical drives without any resulting difficulty in use.
Quentin
crivon1 wrote: Chuck, in
Chuck, in all my computers that I have had since I commenced using DNS, I have always installed it in a logical partition (usually the J drive that has nothing else but DNS in it), and it has always worked fine, except that it is a little slow as I have mentioned in another post. The user file is located in the Documents and Settings \ All Users \ Applications \ Nuance \ NaturallySpeaking9 \ Users \ [name].
Quentin,
In all your computers you have partition your drives using primary partitions, not logical partitions.
Let's still a little configuring partitions 101:
1. Each physical drive can have up to 4 primary partitions. Windows automatically assigns drive letters in sequence to primary partitions. Primary partitions act just like any other partition on a physical drive with a couple of exceptions.
2. Once you have created 4 primary partitions, you can not create any more partitions on that drive unless you subdivide your primary partitions. These subdivisions are what are called logical, or extended, partitions. These are what I'm referring to. DNS will work perfectly fine on a primary partition.
3. Windows has the capability of simultaneously writing to multiple physical hard drives. I don't recall whether it was you or Bruce that indicated that you had a pagefile on drive D. Regardless, since you are D drive is a primary partition, if and when Windows has to write to your pagefile, which is unlikely if you have at least 2 GB of RAM, everything else stops at that point because Windows cannot write to multiple partitions on one physical hard drive. You can only write simultaneously to to physical hard drives. Therefore, it might be beneficial in your case to put the pagefile on your D drive, but other than setting it as a static pagefile, you gain no performance increase from moving your pagefile to the D drive. On the other hand, if you had to physical drives and you place the pagefile on drive D (physical drive D), then Windows can write simultaneously to both C drive and D drive. This is one of the disadvantages of partitioning.
Nevertheless guys, you don't have logical partitions on your systems. You have primary partitions and DNS functions fine with primary partitions. It's logical/extended partition with which DNS has problems.
Chuck Runquist
Former Dragon NaturallySpeaking SDK & Senior Technical Solutions PM for DNS
It is not so much my confidence that scientists will get it right as it is my confidence that nonscientists will get it wrong. Isaac Asimov
To which I add my own version, "I am not so confident that technically oriented people will get it right as it is my confidence that non-technically oriented people will get it wrong."
Chuck Runquist wrote: In
In all your computers you have partition your drives using primary partitions, not logical partitions.
Let's still a little configuring partitions 101:
1. Each physical drive can have up to 4 primary partitions. Windows automatically assigns drive letters in sequence to primary partitions. Primary partitions act just like any other partition on a physical drive with a couple of exceptions.
2. Once you have created 4 primary partitions, you can not create any more partitions on that drive unless you subdivide your primary partitions. These subdivisions are what are called logical, or extended, partitions. These are what I'm referring to. DNS will work perfectly fine on a primary partition.
Nevertheless guys, you don't have logical partitions on your systems. You have primary partitions and DNS functions fine with primary partitions. It's logical/extended partition with which DNS has problems.
Sorry to contradict you,
Chuck, but I have just checked my drives, and it would appear that my C and D drives (OS and Swap) are primary, and the remaining 12 partitions (on my new laptop) are logical. My pagefile is a fixed size. DNS is on the J drive.
Quentin
Chuck Runquist
Nevertheless guys, you don't have logical partitions on your systems. You have primary partitions and DNS functions fine with primary partitions. It's logical/extended partition with which DNS has problems.
Chuck Runquist
Former Dragon NaturallySpeaking SDK & Senior Technical Solutions PM for DNS
Sorry to quibble on rsiguy's plight, but PartitionMagic calls drives D:-J: logical partitions of an extended partition on my primary drive #1. I do have a volume K: on a second drive, which is also a primary drive/partition, but its not used for any system, application or DNS functions -- it just holds photographic or music data (depending on which drive I plug in at boot up).
So maybe we're quibbling from the perspective of most users, but I would suggest the typical user shouldn't have a concern about partitions/disk volumes etc. -- if everything works, work on!
Bruce
Chuck,
Chuck,
I second Quentin's comment -- I've always installed DNS on logical partitions. While its true that I've had problems from time to time, this time (9.x) and the previous time (8.x) haven't been problematic -- except when I've tinkered with my Services as documented in a prior topic.
So while I would advise anybody to accept the default installation, I would note that Quentin's and my results suggest that the problems you discuss involve at least a double rather than a single cause: logical partition installation alone does not seem to consistently cause operational problems with DNS, which suggests that logical partitions installation PLUS factor(s) X, (Y, ..., Z) are required to create the observed problems.
(One of the problems may be that most logical partition installers otherwise slavishly follow MS guide lines, which would interact with logical partition installation to cause the problems. Quentin and I are known cantankerous, idiopathic curmudgeons who do everything differently because we don't particularly see the world the way MS does and because we exploit more of the potentialities of the OS than most users -- we push the limits.)
As a side-note to Nuance: I strongly suggest they need to document this putative problem to dissuade users from trying to customize their installations. I have tried to install every application on anything other than my boot drive for as long as I can remember across all Windows versions because things work better for me that way, and because I haven't run into any problems with my practices -- on the contrary, I benefit from the way I organize my layouts. Of course, if I had an PC unlimited budget like you, I would probably be less concerned, but I've always gotten more out of my soft- and hard-ware than the typical user out of financial necessity.
Bruce
PS: None of this is relevant to rsiguy, to whom I would suggest following your suggestions to a Tee.
BruceCyr wrote: Quentin
Quentin and I are known cantankerous, idiopathic curmudgeons
Who me? – never!
who do everything differently because we don't particularly see the world the way MS does and because we exploit more of the potentialities of the OS than most users -- we push the limits.)
I never thought I was that different! What about all those people who use servers? Are servers not partitioned? I have seen them were each user has his/her own partition.
I have tried to install every application on anything other than my boot drive for as long as I can remember across all Windows versions because things work better for me that way, and because I haven't run into any problems with my practices -- on the contrary, I benefit from the way I organize my layouts. Of course, if I had an PC unlimited budget like you, I would probably be less concerned, but I've always gotten more out of my soft- and hard-ware than the typical user out of financial necessity.
Likewise – but my filing system is chaotic! Every so often I tell myself to get at the filing system and make it more accessible, but the time never seems to be right
Quentin
I will do everything exactly
I will do everything exactly as you say. I'm downloading service pack 2 now. The connection is quite fragile in the area, it'll be hours before it finishes. I think I understand everything you said, I should be able to do it all.
one thing I don't understand is how do you determine I have a logical partition, or not? Because I don't know if I have one. Every time I try to read up on it, I find the explanations too complicated. Is there some simple MS-DOS test I can perform to say yes/not it's logical?
because I have my Dragon application in C:. specifically in C:\program files. I assumed the C: is always called the primary partition. Not the logical partition. Now of course I do have my user files somewhere else, E:, so I GUESS that's this thing called a "logical partition". I don't really know.
so my point here is I'm confused. This phrase 5. Don't install DNS on logical partitions. Only install it on physical drives/primary partitions. doesn't make sense to me
rsiguy
rsiguy wrote:one thing I
one thing I don't understand is how do you determine I have a logical partition, or not? Because I don't know if I have one. Every time I try to read up on it, I find the explanations too complicated. Is there some simple MS-DOS test I can perform to say yes/not it's logical?
because I have my Dragon application in C:. specifically in C:\program files. I assumed the C: is always called the primary partition. Not the logical partition. Now of course I do have my user files somewhere else, E:, so I GUESS that's this thing called a "logical partition". I don't really know.
rsiguy
If your Dragon files on on C:... they are absolutely fine and this is not your problem. The easiest way of discovering if you have logical partitions is to check on explorer how many partitions you have (C:, D:, E:...etc) and compare this with the number of physical hard drives in your computer... if they are the same, you have no logical partitions.
However, I have been installing Dragon on my logical D:Applications) drive , and my user files on my logical F:(ApplicationData)since version 4 and have not seen any of the problems described by Chuck. This has been with DNS Preferred UK; do you think this could be a version issue, or possibly the partitioning software? ( I use Partition magic and have resized my drives with Dragon installed with absolutely no problems.. I also regularly hibernate with Dragon in sleep mode.. it wakes up OK at least nine times out of ten and if I restart at least once a week things seem to run quite smoothly.
Mark
Quentin and I are known cantankerous, idiopathic curmudgeons who do everything differently
Can I join the club?
MarkUK
Quentin and I are known cantankerous, idiopathic curmudgeons who do everything differently
Can I join the club?
You're very welcome - at least there'd be two of us on this side of the pond
Quentin
so mark, your dragon has
so mark, your dragon has never crashed, nor simply vanished? Your dragon sessions have always run through their course perfectly, and always let you close them perfectly? Because this is a semiregular occurrence for me, the crashing I mean. It's not a crash per se, as it simply lacks the traditional error message, but essentially it is. I don't know any other synonym appropriate for when a process simply disappears without ever asking if I wanted to save my recently modified user files. my dragon definitely crashes.
I've tolerated this behavior for a long time. I'm willing to make the necessary changes to optimize my system fully for Dragon. If the Dragon program is stupidly designed, then so be it. I'll do whatever is necessary to accommodate it's needs. its benefits to my lifestyle are too great. Even if I have to sacrifice all my series of ghost backup images.
rsiguy wrote:
so my point here is I'm confused. This phrase 5. Don't install DNS on logical partitions. Only install it on physical drives/primary partitions. doesn't make sense to me
rsiguy
Yah, I am too -- too much data.
I guess the important thing is to ignore the quibbling and focus on your problem:
1. Do another (presumably incremental) backup before you do anything else.
2. Officially uninstall DNS to preserve your total installations allotment. To be really thorough after uninstalling, you might try the official DNS 9 total removal tool available from Nuance's download site.
3. Do a plain-Jane, hyper-vanilla install selecting all suggested defaults. (N.b., you might be penalized if you so much as think of a customization touch in the process:-)
4. Try it out: If it works OK, party on! Otherwise, summon us all to a public flogging session -- you can use a cat-o-nine-tails with embedded diamond razor tips.
Bruce
BruceCyr wrote:
Otherwise, summon us all to a public flogging session -- you can use a cat-o-nine-tails with embedded diamond razor tips.
Hold on Bruce: plain barbed wire would do. Let's keep the diamonds. This is the era of the recession and every contribution will help
Quentin
Quentin: If there is to be
Quentin:
If there is to be flagellation, let it be done with style! I was thinking of high-American panache a la Liberace, Disney/Pixar, and the Amazing Ageless Madonna (a veritable perpetual money-making machine) -- the better to entertain us hoi polloi in tough times
Bruce