Position of mike when using Andrea ANC-750?!
My lively old Parrott headset developed a short somewhere in the wiring of the headset itself, and so reluctantly I retired it. In its stead I have purchased a new Andrea ANC-750 from eMicrophones, as it fits within my budget and gets good marks for its price range.
So far I'm quite happy with it - but I do have one question for anyone with experience using this particular headset. Normally when using a headset, I have sought to position the mike at the corner of my mouth to avoid breath sounds being picked up by Dragon. I've struggled a little to do this with the Andrea, because the boom is quite long, but I can just about manage the "correct" position if I put a kind of double-bend in the boom.
But looking at the Andrea literature again, I see the diagrams & text suggest a mike position directly in front of the mouth, with a 3/4" distance between mike and lips!!!! I may go ahead and try this just to see what it's like - but before I invest time in the effort, I'd like to hear if anyone has already used this position with success, i.e. without breath noise being a problem.
Just saw this comment from
Just saw this comment from Martin in response to someone's post on the KnowBrainer forums -
If you have a rather small head, you will need to bend the boom of an Andrea microphone so that it is at the corner of your mouth.
Just thought I would mention, I don't have a small head (I'm a big guy) but I do have a small jaw!
I guess this confirms my original idea of keeping it at the corner rather than going full-frontal as shown in the Andrea literature. Still interested in hearing from other folks about their experiences, though ...
I've used headset mikes
I've used headset mikes full-frontal, positioned either just below my mouth (I talk down into the mike) or slighly further away than when they're at the corner.
I always use hand mikes full-frontal.
Why not try it and see?
Judy
Randy Burgess wrote: Just
Just saw this comment from Martin in response to someone's post on the KnowBrainer forums -
If you have a rather small head, you will need to bend the boom of an Andrea microphone so that it is at the corner of your mouth.
Just thought I would mention, I don't have a small head (I'm a big guy) but I do have a small jaw!
I guess this confirms my original idea of keeping it at the corner rather than going full-frontal as shown in the Andrea literature. Still interested in hearing from other folks about their experiences, though ...
Randy,
In August of 2000, while I was in charge of microphone testing and Technical Solutions Project Manager, as well as the SDK PM, we conducted a comprehensive three-week usability study in conjunction with telex, Andréa, Emkay, Plantronics, Labtec, and Shure. We used 50 randomly selected females and 50 randomly selected mails to conduct the study, which was conducted at L&H's test lab in Burlington. We then replicated the study at Bucks County Community College in Newtown Pennsylvania with 50 randomly selected female and 50 randomly selected male students. We used Perl script to analyze the results using a formula that we called the difference in the error rate, and which measured the changes in accuracy based on the positioning of the microphone element during dictation. The study was published by L&H and Plantronics, but has apparently become lost in all of the transition from L&H to ScanSoft to Nuance. The results were as follows:
The best accuracy was achieved with the microphone element placed as follows.
1/2 to 3/4 of an inch from the mouth and slightly (approximately an eighth of an inch) behind the right or left corner of the mouth. This was done by placing the index finger directly in the corner of the mouth and placing the microphone element on the ear side of the index finger. The best results were also obtained if the microphone element was approximately the thickness of the index finger below the corner of the mouth.
All other positions, especially placing the microphone in front of the mouth produced a significant amount of accuracy errors due to breath sounds, hisses, and pops from the speakers voice.
The results were significant at that .01 the level of significance using Analysis of Variance (K x L x M), Spearman Row Correlation Coefficient, chi-square, and t-test statistical analysis procedures. All testing showed up with the same exact results at both the L&H test labs and Bucks County community college. In 2001, we get a similar in-house study obtaining the exact same results.
The only variables that produced different results were: (1) volume of the speakers voice, which necessitated moving the microphone element slightly further out (approximately 1 inch), and (2) the input signal strength of the microphone element, which necessitated the same distance variation.
The results were so dramatically significant, that all of the microphone manufacturers adopted that at that time as the standard for use with speech recognition. In addition, anyone who has an old copy of L&H Voice Xpress would see the correct microphone positioning in that products audio setup wizard, which was an animated video showing the correct positioning over the entirety of 360° by rotating the head with the microphone correctly positioned.
Why Andréa continues to use the microphone position that they use in their demos is beyond me. Both they and Nuance (audio setup wizard photograph at the beginning of the audio setup wizard, second screen) are absolutely and completely wrong.
It's important to note that this positioning of microphone elements is only relevant to close talk headset/microphones with with microphone booms that extend down past the corner of the mouth. These results should not be applied to, for example, the Plantronics CS 55 USB and related microphones because the placement of the elements in these microphones is irrelevant (i.e., they are already positioned where they should be behind the mouth add an appropriate distance relative to the electronic characteristics of the microphone element). In addition, microphones such as the Sennheiser MD431II can be placed to the side of the mouth, but are designed for best speech capturing characteristics to be placed in front of the mouth. In the case of the Sennheiser MD431II, the noise canceling characteristics eliminate the hisses in pops and produce very clear speech reproduction even when placed in front of the mouth. Therefore, this study applied only to close talk headset/microphones, but is still relevant today for the same types of microphones.
Chuck Runquist
Former Dragon NaturallySpeaking SDK & Senior Technical Solutions PM for DNS
If computers get too powerful, we can organize them into a committee - that will do them in. - Bradley's Bromide
Well, I for one am
Well, I for one am impressed! Thanks Chuck.
Chuck Runquist
Just saw this comment from Martin in response to someone's post on the KnowBrainer forums -
The best accuracy was achieved with the microphone element placed as follows.
1/2 to 3/4 of an inch from the mouth and slightly (approximately an eighth of an inch) behind the right or left corner of the mouth. This was done by placing the index finger directly in the corner of the mouth and placing the microphone element on the ear side of the index finger. The best results were also obtained if the microphone element was approximately the thickness of the index finger below the corner of the mouth.
All other positions, especially placing the microphone in front of the mouth produced a significant amount of accuracy errors due to breath sounds, hisses, and pops from the speakers voice.
I have just managed to relocate this post which prompted me to change my microphone position to the side of my mouth... At the moment I am not convinced. If one makes such a substantial change in microphone position, is it better to create a new user file? I am using a Sennheiser ME3.
Mark
MarkUK wrote: I have just
I have just managed to relocate this post which prompted me to change my microphone position to the side of my mouth... At the moment I am not convinced. If one makes such a substantial change in microphone position, is it better to create a new user file? I am using a Sennheiser ME3.
There is only one correct microphone position. It is the one that works for you.
If you have the strong voice, a microphone element may be further from the mouth. Conversely, a weak voice and the microphone element should be closer to the mouth. If you have a microphone with a strong output signal you want to keep the microphone element further away.
Over the years, we have advised that you slide any dictation system by running Audio Setup Wizard. In most environments and with most people, this will cure any variances in positioning. We also have said, when accuracy goes down, as it does for everybody, guess what, it is time to rerun the Audio Setup Wizard.
We have seen people obsess over one quarter of an inch difference in the microphone position. As Bobby McFerrin said, "Don't worry, be happy."
--
Martin Markoe, eMicrophones, Inc.
The best microphones for Speech Recognition
Read, "Key Steps to High Speech Reco
Martin, I guess this means
Martin,
I guess this means you've returned from your 3-month tropical sojourn to Pango-Pango and its nether dependencies?! I also guess this means that a new user is not necessary if you just rerun the Audio Setup Wizard?
Bruce
BruceCyr wrote: I also
I also guess this means that a new user is not necessary if you just rerun the Audio Setup Wizard?
I do not believe I said anything like that. What did you read that was interpreted as such?
--
Martin Markoe, eMicrophones, Inc.
The best microphones for Speech Recognition
Read, "Key Steps to High Speech Reco
What I "interpreted as such"
What I "interpreted as such" was your obvious and yawning failure to affirm the poster's query whether creating a new user was necessary. That failure to affirm in conjunction with a longish paean on rerunning the Audio Setup Wizard would lead any reasonable reader to infer that you were implicitly condemning the idea of creating a new user.
But why should we flounder trying to infer your intentions: Do you or do you not suggest the user create a new user?
In other words, respond to the poster's query.
Bruce
PS: I can't puzzle out the dictato: "we have advised that you slide any dictation system"?
Glad to see I am not the
Glad to see I am not the only one to be the subject of Bruce's ire
and sarcastic wit 
Quentin
Dear me, Quentin! Ire and
Dear me, Quentin! Ire and sarcasm are appropriate for adults, while I think of you as a problem child
Bruce
BruceCyr wrote: Dear me,
Dear me, Quentin! Ire and sarcasm are appropriate for adults, while I think of you as a problem child
It takes one to know one!
Quentin
BruceCyr wrote: What I
What I "interpreted as such" was your obvious and yawning failure to affirm the poster's query whether creating a new user was necessary.
Whoa!!! Runaway horse (or interpretation). You read much more into this then was intended.
What we have said about creating a new user profile for many years is, when you get a new better microphone, run the Audio Setup Wizard and if you're happy with the results continue using your current user profile. If you are unhappy with the results or if you are using a different source, i.e. USB versus internal sound card, and you should create a new user profile.
We have come to this conclusion because we ourselves rarely make brand-new profiles except for the few cases where we have poor results with a microphone has been reported to be good. We have found that our user profiles made with one of our four best microphones (Sennheiser ME3 modified headset, theBoom earhook, Sennheiser MD431II, or the Samson Airlines 77) will allow almost any other microphone to work to their optimum level without creating a new user profile. As most people are upgrading to better microphones, it may be wise to create a new user profile.
Hopefully this will clear the water for you has apparently my dictatoes have muddied the waters.
Martin
PS. In this business we do not want to make definitive statements. There are many variables having to do with hardware, software, the human voice, and environmental conditions. These variables may make what is true for you untrue for someone else.
--
Martin Markoe, eMicrophones, Inc.
The best microphones for Speech Recognition
These are the instructions
These are the instructions found in the Dragon Accuracy Assistant in DNS 9.5 Preferred:
"Keep the headset microphone at the corner of your mouth and not directly in front of it. Make sure the microphone is about a thumb's width away from the corner of your mouth. If the microphone is too far away, your recognition accuracy may deteriorate noticeably."
However the picture that appears when you are training shows a beautiful young lady with the microphone placed just under the centre of her lower lip . (It may well be that Nuance hopes that one would be concentrating more on the lady than the microphone and therefore the position of the microphone would not be noticed
)
Somewhat contradictory!
As far as I can recall from the last time I saw the ViaVoice graphic set up, the microphone is shown clearly at the corner of the mouth, and that the instructions stated that this is where it should be.
Quentin
crivon1 wrote: These are
These are the instructions found in the Dragon Accuracy Assistant in DNS 9.5 Preferred:
"Keep the headset microphone at the corner of your mouth and not directly in front of it. Make sure the microphone is about a thumb's width away from the corner of your mouth. If the microphone is too far away, your recognition accuracy may deteriorate noticeably."
Whose thumb are we talking about? My wifes thumb is half the size of mine (she calls me, "her big galoot"). How much would it deteriorate? Under what conditions (noisier environments require microphone closer to one's mouth), etc. etc.
--
Martin Markoe, eMicrophones, Inc.
The best microphones for Speech Recognition
Read, "Key Steps to High Speech Reco
Martin Markoe wrote: Whose
Whose thumb are we talking about? My wifes thumb is half the size of mine (she calls me, "her big galoot"). How much would it deteriorate? Under what conditions (noisier environments require microphone closer to one's mouth), etc. etc.
Don'n know. My wife refuses to use SR., so I have never tried to measure. If she did, her small thumb would result in the mike being stuck under her eye tooth
All I was saying was that the DNS instructions are contradictory as between the words and the photo.
Quentin
Another deft yawner, Martin!
Another deft yawner, Martin! Maybe Randy has more intuition than I do, but I still can't tell whether you're advising him to create a new user or not. Could it be you're practicing running for some political post since it seems one or more NY slots are likely to be emptied sooner rather than later?
As for being definitive, you are quite emphatic in recommending running the Audio Setup Wizard, so why waffle on the issue of new user creation? Could it be that the cost of running the Audio Setup Wizard is minor compared to that of creating a new user? In which case, if running the Audio Setup Wizard doesn't work, it wouldn't get the user too PO'ed. But making a new user is more tedious, so if that didn't work, the user would be sure to express his/her disappointment.
Still wondering over that marvelous "slide any dictation system", which must rank as a major systemic move: Knowing when to slide left or right is, of course, a major political skill
Bruce
Bruce, > As for being
Bruce,
> As for being definitive, you are quite emphatic in
> recommending running the Audio Setup Wizard, so why
> waffle on the issue of new user creation?
OK, here it is definitively. If your accuracy with a new microphone is good with your old user profile, continue using the old user profile. If you see no improvement with the new allegedly better microphone, and create a new user profile to see if there is an improvement inaccuracy.
I see the above response more as a pancake than a waffle.
--
Martin Markoe, eMicrophones, Inc.
The best microphones for Speech Recognition
Inquiring minds want to
Inquiring minds want to know!
What was the original dictation that Dragon saw fit to slaughter into "slide any dictation system"?
I have to know this. I can't eat dinner if I don't know this. I could go nuttier than I already am. I may not be able to sleep... naw... I can sleep.
admin wrote: Inquiring
Inquiring minds want to know!
What was the original dictation that Dragon saw fit to slaughter into "slide any dictation system"?
Only for your ears Skip. Should have been "Whenever you start a dictation session." It was pretty obvious to me when I went back to read it in context.
Marty
Martin Markoe wrote: admin
Inquiring minds want to know!
What was the original dictation that Dragon saw fit to slaughter into "slide any dictation system"?
Only for your ears Skip. Should have been "Whenever you start a dictation session." It was pretty obvious to me when I went back to read it in context.
Marty
Now I can sleep easy. Thanks!
That confusion cleared, to
That confusion cleared, to get back to the subject! I created a new user last night with the usual wordlists and document analysis... and the result so far confirms did need a new user and that the audio setup alone was not enough. I dictated a letter in both users and one phrase that caused particular and repeated problems with my old user came out perfectly with the new one... with a couple of minor errors as well. How much of this was due to the change of microphone position and how much to deterioration in my user files, I cannot be sure, but for me the effort has been worthwhile.
This time I have taken the precaution of duplicating my new user straight away in case or when
this new one gives up.
I take the point of only saving when you have had a good session and added commands or phrases, but I add new words phrases on a fairly regular basis and it seems a shame not to save them.
Mark
DNS 9.5, Sennheiser ME3 with Andrea pod
Martin Markoe wrote: Over
Over the years, we have advised that you slide any dictation system by running Audio Setup Wizard. In most environments and with most people, this will cure any variances in positioning. We also have said, when accuracy goes down, as it does for everybody, guess what, it is time to rerun the Audio Setup Wizard.
Thanks Martin, I do that as a routine. Over the years I had settled on a position much more in front of the corner of my mouth, but Chuck's post seemed so definite that I thought I would see if it worked in practice. I now find that my user is generally less accurate than it was and wondered if that was because I had confused it by making a substantial change in microphone position, but it is getting a little long in the tooth, so probably time for a new one.
Regards
Mark
(DNS 9.5 Preferred, WinXPSE, Sennheiser ME3)
MarkUK wrote: I would see
I would see if it worked in practice. I now find that my user is generally less accurate than it was and wondered if that was because I had confused it by making a substantial change in microphone position, but it is getting a little long in the tooth, so probably time for a new one.(DNS 9.5 Preferred, WinXPSE, Sennheiser ME3)
Read our FAQ section's answer to,"How should I train a new user in Dragon NaturallySpeaking?"
--
Martin Markoe, eMicrophones, Inc.
The best microphones for Speech Recognition
Read, "Key Steps to High Speech Recognition Accuracy"